Re: Mindflayer History Was /Just how big is "known space"?/

Sorry for the delay with this. I've got problems with my ISP.

(I would have replied via telepathy, but also have problems with my ESP. 
Arf! Arf!)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jon Prosser" <jonprosser@?????.com>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 3:57 PM
Subject: [SPELLJAMMER] Mindflayer History Was /Just how big is "known 
space"?/


> --- David Shepheard <david_shepheard@???????.com>
> wrote:
>
>> >> [Ben Wafer] Wait, what? Are you sure about that
>> >> Adam? I thought the sphere-and-plane-spanning
>> >> illithid empire was way older than that. The
>> >> Illithiad has this to say about the collapse of
>> the
>> >> illithid empire: "In truth, the illithid loss was
>> >> so great, that the mind flayers have not fully
>> >> recovered from it, even millennia later." To me
>> that
>> >> places the fall of the illithid empire a minimum
>> of
>> >> 2,000 years ago (probably longer),
>
> That would be pretty close to the history of the Gith
> races. Selective breeding of the Gith servitor race
> must have taken at least five hundred years, if humans
> were the original race as mentioned often in Gith MM
> entries, and probably even longer, as they keep using
> the term 'ancient masters'. Then comes the time
> necessary for the freed Gith to become the three
> separate races.

Paul's timeline doesn't mention Pirates of Gith until 5016 OC. Illithids are 
not mentioned before 2618 OC, when the Netherese ships are said to generate 
a similar amount of fear to illithid ships. You can't fear a ship that 
doesn't exist, so I'd argue the Nautiloids were in Realmspace before that 
year.

The only other thing we know is that the illithids went into space after the 
thri-kreen. (That implies that the Pirates of Gith also went into space 
after the thri-kreen.)

Paul has the Astromundi illithids emerging from the Underdark of Astromundi 
sometime between 3400-3500 OC. This is later than 2618, so Astromundi 
couldn't be the illithid homeworld without time travel (or planewalking). 
(If you want to avoid time travelling illithids, then you need to say that 
the information from the Astromundi Cluster boxed set is incorrect, or a 
deliberate lie on the part of the illithids.)

Maybe someone with the time, can look for canon sources to help Paul lock 
down the time for the first appearance of the illithids or the first 
apperance of the Pirates of Gith. Dates for the other gith races would help 
home in the range of dates.

Maybe information about the yaggol of Dragonlance might help. Bestiary of 
Krynn - Revised page 117 says that the yaggol were already in Taladas before 
the (First) Cataclysm (of Krynn). They had years of war with the cha'asii 
elves of Taladas, before degenerating from the original illithid race. Hmm. 
That happened before 4685 OC, so it doesn't narrow things down any more than 
the stuff on Paul's timeline. However, it might be good to lock that date 
down to work out when the illithids might have first visited Krynnspace.

>> > Lords of Madness places the illithid empire in the
>> > distant future,
>
> My problem with this is the Gith races, who don't seem
> savvy enough to travel back in time to fight the
> Illithids, then be crazy enough to just start fighting
> themselves.

If you kept a future illithid empire (from Lords of Madness) *and* also kept 
earlier sources of information about the illithids, then the Gith races 
would not need to travel in time.

The illithids could emerge on Astromundi in spend 2000 years there (to get 
up to the present day). Spend another 2000 years (or whatever) there to get 
up to the date mentioned in the Astromundi Chronicles from Lords of Madness. 
Then and *only* then, go back in time 4000 (or whatever) years and become 
the illithids of the Known Spheres.

The illithids of Clusterspace's distant future could go back to the distant 
past to try to take over the universe. After they finish time travelling, 
you could have them discover or invent the gith and then go with the 
timeline implied by earlier AD&D products.

Clusterspace has that Hotel California thing going on, so I think that 
illithids could meddle in the past of other crystal spheres without 
accidentally killing their own ancestors.

Personally my biggest problem with illithids and Clusterspace is that they 
claim to be decended from mutated humans, but in other sources illithids 
seem to be some sort of parasite that drills into a host and takes over the 
body.

I'd be more likely to believe that the illithid "slugs" were living in the 
Underdark of Astromundi and took over the bodies of some other sort of 
underground creature, before the mutated humans arrived and allowed them to 
transform into a humanoid creature. If illithid parasites work a bit like 
the chest buster from Alien, then maybe they only become intellegent *after* 
merging with a sentient creature. If that was true, then the illithid 
knowledge would all come from the mutants that they took over. The elder 
brains would initially only have information relating to the mutants and 
their feelings for the people on the surface of Astromundi.

If the illithids were "born" when they first merged with the mutants, then 
the viewpoint they would have about humanity would be the hatred they would 
pick up from the mutant brains they would be taking over. And I suppose if 
you stretch the truth, you could say that the early illithids, wouldn't know 
that they were not the original mutant, that they had taken over. They could 
assume they were the person, who's knowledge they possessed.

(I'll admit this is a bit of a logical leap, but I think that the Astromundi 
Cluster boxed set is just as dodgy as Lords of Madness.)

> For me it's easier to believe that the Illithid empire
> was 2000 years ago, spanning a trio of spheres.

Where do you get the three spheres from? Please cite a souce if this is 
canon information.

Why could illithids from the future not arrive in those three spheres and 
create the Illithid Empire?

> Eventually the simultaneous rebellion of there great
> servant race the Gith, and several other races on
> various worlds. The empire fell, as the Gith unity.
> Some took to the stars in the illithid's spelljamming
> vessels, eventually becoming the Pirates of Gith. The
> Lich Queen took her Githyanki to the astral plane,
> where they developed the Silver Swords to combat the
> Illithids who followed them there, and harbored a deep
> resentment of the Githzerai for years. While the
> Githzerai went to Limbo, all the beter to defend
> themselves against both the Githyanki and Illithids.

I'm pretty sure this would still work if the illithids came back from the 
future, created their empire and *then* messed with the gith. The gith don't 
even need to know they are dealing with time travellers.

> This makes life interesting for the illithids, who
> would have to travel in packs when traveling through
> the planes, and in great numbers on there vessels when
> spelljamming. Though now the Great Illithid Empire is
> a distant memory in the heads of the oldest elves, and
> myth only on the worlds effected by it. And the
> Illithids are traders and slavers who travel the stars
> and wait for the day spheres will again fall before
> them.

Again, this would seem to work if the elves of Clusterspace spend centuaries 
trying to take over Clusterspace and then popped back into the past to form 
the Illithid Empire you mention.

Any differences between the two versions, could easily be put down to errors 
in the Astromundi Chronicles. This book would have to be a book that was 
smuggled back in time, so the society that wrote it doesn't exist yet. Going 
to visit Clusterspace might alter the book or even prevent it from being 
written.

"The Astromundi Chronicles is *one* possible future. From your point of 
view. I don't know the tech stuff."
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://spelljammer.wikia.com/
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/