Re: Just how big is "known space"?

From: "Adam Miller" <night_druid3000@?????.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Just how big is "known space"?


> --- David Shepheard <david_shepheard@???????.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm not hung up on it as I know it is a number that
>> comes from a point in time. The true number has gone
>> from below 80 to above 80. However, the number is a
>> target that can be aimed at. If we worked out a
>> Known Space with between 70 and 90 planets in it, I
>> think that would feel close enough.
>
> Heh, well if we have 20 or so spheres, that's a
> 4-planet average, 3 once you include epic spheres like
> Grey/Realms/Krynn/Korv.

I think we need to include three types of locations in the Known Spheres:

* Groundling worlds that have a large population pool, but have little 
relavence to spacefarers (except as a resource for slaving nations),
* Spacefaring societies, where ships can: dock, resupply, gain new 
crewmembers and get repairs and
* Hostile environments, where ships find it very hard to land without some 
sort of risk.

I would say that each crystal sphere in the Known Spheres, should have 3 or 
4 friendly (or semi-fiendly) ports of call. Any groundling worlds or hostile 
locations should be in addition to this number.

Outside the Known Spheres, the same logic doesn't apply. I would find it 
easier to by a crystal sphere where all intellegent life is plant-life or 
whatever.

>> And that is why I want Known Space to expand much
>> more slowly than that hypothetical rate. By putting
>> everything people need within their own crystal
>> spheres, we can cut down on inter-sphere travel. And
>> by putting everything people *want* within Known
>> Space, we cut down on the reasons to actually go
>> exploring.
>
> True.  SJ does have a problem with one-off spheres
> everywhere ;)  (and I'm just as guilty as anyone else
> in that regard! ;) )

Weird spheres are not a problem. Weird spheres are good. But they are best 
kept out of the Known Spheres and put into frontier spheres or unexplored 
regions.

>> You are right. But we could have a "Known Space"
>> according to the Shou Lung or the Celestians or
>> whoever is in charge of the Geonomicon. It could be
>> a definition that is in some ways like the real
>> worlds "G7".
>
> A "navigator's guild" would be the ideal arbiter of
> such things.

We could always give the occasional sphere two names, to highlight the fact 
that there is not universal agreement on everything.

>> What I'm after is a way to draw a circle around this
>> region of space and say: "the core rules of SJ"
>> apply to these spheres.
>
> That's been my goal since I started Grommspace,
> really.

Yay! I'll follow your lead on this. (I'll pick holes in your logic if I see 
them, because I want this to be as good as possible, but you can wear the 
big fancy cloak that doesn't get dirty.)

>> I'm currently of the opinion that all sphere guides
>> should work in a single sphere campaign (similar to
>> Shadows of the Spider Moon) *or* a multi-sphere
>> campaign.
>
> Multi-spheric campaigns work better, IMHO, but that's
> just me ;)

That isn't just you, Adam. I think that multi-sphere campaigns work best 
too. But I want us to make sure that any SJ content we make is as 
multi-purpose as possible.

If someone wants to run an AD&D campaign, I want them to be able to use The 
Known Spheres, and if someone wants to run a 3.0/3.5 D&D campaign I also 
want them to be able to use The Known Spheres.

If someone wants to avoid the use of Dragonlance, Greyhawk and/or Forgotten 
Realms, I want them to be able to drop Krynn, Oerth and/or Toril or maybe 
even drop Krynnspace, Greyspace and/or Realmspace. So I'd like to see 
someone offer advice on cutting these bits out of The Known Spheres.

But on the other hand if someone only wants to use Krynnspace, Greyspace or 
Realmspace, I'd equally like to see them be given the advice they need to do 
that. And the same applies to all of the other crystal spheres. While a 
single-sphere campaign isn't recommended, a DM has the right to do it, and 
I'd like to make it possible for them to do it as well as possible.

>> Things don't need to be smashed to pieces, but the
>> spheres next to an expanding empire need to react in
>> some way. In some cases you would want to add
>> several invasion ships or privateers to the sphere
>> next to a new one. In other cases it might be enough
>> to add a note that a new Phlogiston river has
>> been discovered. Alternatively, you could have
>> multi-sphere trading coasters in a new sphere, that
>> are known to visit older spheres that have already
>> been written.
>
> Details like that should be handled by the product
> detailing the invasion :p

That works for me. The frontier spheres can all include an expanded map that 
shows the Known Spheres and a few new crystal spheres on the edge of them.

>> Surely if you had a new and interesting sphere next
>> to Grommspace, you would want to know what trade
>> arrangements existed between the new sphere and
>> Grommspace?
>
> Oh certainly; I do have a few "fill in the blank"
> spots in Grommspace, largely because I wasn't sure how
> Paul was going to change the Arcane Inner Flow with
> his upcoming articles.

If you really come up with great details later, you could always publish a 
2nd edition of Grommspace or a "Web Enhancement".

>> You don't need to tell me. I looked at your Moon of
>> the Month output and tried to work out how fast it
>> would take to flesh out a good sphere.
>
> About six months to a year, give or take a few months.
> I think I could hammer a relatively simple sphere out
> much faster than Grommspace now that I have a format I
> like down.

I also think that Grommspace was held back, because you were trying to be 
true to Paul's work, true to the description of hadozee and true to the 
description of grommans. If you didn't have to worry about continuity, you 
could probably organise thoughts in your head faster.

>> A map of Known Space could start us off.
>
> I'm actually working on one.  Its a rough sketch right
> now, but the idea I'm toying with is reversing the
> Arcane Inner Flow.  Instead of having the Inner Flow &
> the Radiant Triangle sitting side by side, I'm
> wrapping the Inner Flow around the Triangle, with the
> Greatspace/'burbs triangle at the other end, & filling
> in the Inner Flow with spheres from the novels.
> Actually looks kinda nice.
>
>
>> A quick run through of the planets within the
>> spheres, could expand on that.  As could a list of
>> Phlogiston rivers.
>
> Already working on a general outline, cribb'n Paul's
> notes on the subject...;)

This all sounds like what I'm looking for.

>> After that, each planet within a sphere could be
>> built up to "Moon of the Month" standard. Bigger
>> planets could be given sevaral areas with that
>> much detail.
>
> Heh, even still, can be a lot of work. :)

I'm not underestimating the amount of work. I think it would take years. But 
if we had a general description of 8 worlds and a Moon of the Month style 
description of an asteroid base and one moon, a DM would be able to run a 
simple campaign in the sphere without any world building. The plot would 
probably be a bit linear, but the players might not notice if the DM was 
careful.

>> After all that was done a campaign setting could be
>> written to pull al the details for that sphere
>> together.
>
> I think some overall parts can be written up that
> cover many spheres, such as trade companies and such.

They would be good too. I'd like to see some trading companies be given 
fairly accurate trade routes that say the planets they visit on a regular 
basis.

>> That sounds logical to me, but don't forget to
>> include a reason for the sphere name. Pathspace
>> needs a planet named Path or a giant roadway
>> called "The Path", or something similar.
>
> Naw, Paul had a cool idea for Pathspace: it should be
> the location of some of the planets from the SJ comic,
> particularly Astrylon & Barrara.  Toss in another
> planet or two and the sphere should be golden.

Hmm. If Paul has something done, then I'd like to go with it. But, what 
reason did he give for the sphere being called PATHspace? There has to be a 
reason. There *always* has to be a reason.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://spelljammer.wikia.com/
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