Re: Just how big is "known space"?

From: "Adam Miller" <night_druid3000@?????.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Just how big is "known space"?


> --- David Shepheard wrote:

<snip>

>> I'm saying that I am not willing to buy a known
>> space that starts as three spheres in the in-
>> character year that Adventures in Space was set and
>> expands to 80 worlds by the in-character year that
>> Practical Planetology was published.
>
> Not sure I'd get too hung up on the number 80...on a
> guess, I'd say that was just an abrirtary number set
> by the author.

I'm not hung up on it as I know it is a number that comes from a point in 
time. The true number has gone from below 80 to above 80. However, the 
number is a target that can be aimed at. If we worked out a Known Space with 
between 70 and 90 planets in it, I think that would feel close enough.

>> I want known space to expand, but if it expands at
>> that rate, we will need you to write a "Sphere of
>> the Month" to keep up.
>
> Um, yikes, that's insane!  That's like 1 full-fledged
> product per month...I'm not sure there's a RPG writer
> alive that could handle that one!

And that is why I want Known Space to expand much more slowly than that 
hypothetical rate. By putting everything people need within their own 
crystal spheres, we can cut down on inter-sphere travel. And by putting 
everything people *want* within Known Space, we cut down on the reasons to 
actually go exploring.

>> I think that at the start of the campaign (the time
>> in Adventures in Space) I would rather make
>> most "spacefarers" people who stick to their own
>> crystal sphere. I think I'd like some Phlogiston
>> rivers to be treated as industrial secrets. I think
>> I would like to see frontier spheres discovered and
>> lost at a similar rate.
>
> That's probably the case; what exactly constitutes
> "known space" varies from captain to captain, nation
> to nation, I'd think. :p

You are right. But we could have a "Known Space" according to the Shou Lung 
or the Celestians or whoever is in charge of the Geonomicon. It could be a 
definition that is in some ways like the real worlds "G7".

>> I think I would like known space to have not changed
>> much between Adventures in Space and Practical
>> Planetology.
>
> Well, here's the thing: you're dealing with
> potentially a large amount of data.  If we go with a
> notion of say 20 spheres counted as known space, each
> sphere should get at the very least a 5 page writeup,
> with more detailed spheres getting a full treatment
> (up to 100 pages).  A 2,000-page book of Known Space
> would certainly give you so much data you'd never run
> out of adventure ideas! :)

As someone with one published BtM article, one part contribution on a 
conversion article and a couple of unpublished articles in Into the Void, I 
know that this task would be to big a task to finish. And that is why I 
wouldn't even try.

What I'm after is a way to draw a circle around this region of space and 
say: "the core rules of SJ" apply to these spheres.

I'm currently of the opinion that all sphere guides should work in a single 
sphere campaign (similar to Shadows of the Spider Moon) *or* a multi-sphere 
campaign.

>> I think I would *love* the Second Unhuman War to
>> give the known space a big shake up. I think I would
>> *love* the events surrounding The Cloakmaster and
>> the lust for The Spelljammer, to show the weakness
>> of certain organisations that we might want to get
>> rid of.
>>
>> I think  I would *love* the Vodoni activity to give
>> known space another big shake up.
>
> Honestly, were I to write a huge "book of Known
> Space", the LAST thing I want to do is take a
> sledgehammer to it and smash it all to pieces via-vi
> sphere-shattering wars and such...;)

Things don't need to be smashed to pieces, but the spheres next to an 
expanding empire need to react in some way. In some cases you would want to 
add several invasion ships or privateers to the sphere next to a new one. In 
other cases it might be enough to add a note that a new Phlogiston river has 
been discovered. Alternatively, you could have multi-sphere trading coasters 
in a new sphere, that are known to visit older spheres that have already 
been written.

Surely if you had a new and interesting sphere next to Grommspace, you would 
want to know what trade arrangements existed between the new sphere and 
Grommspace?

>> I think I could accept an expanded Geonomicon or a
>> revised Geonomicon after those big events.
>
> YIKES...are you like, INSANE?  Or do you have the
> secrets of cloning solved? ;)

I don't want to write the Geonomicon. I just want to infer a history to the 
book that has several editions. It could be fun to give a group of players a 
50 year old Geonomicon that has lots of inacurate data in it.

>> I think there is a place for asteroid filled spheres
>> in Spelljammer.
>
> There are several.  Moragspace, Clusterspace,
> Passarspace, Lostspace, and arguably Darkspace &
> Bralspace.

You forgot Clichéspace!

:-P

>> I remember reading two things recently that
>> suggested that some sort of planet killing
>> technology exists.
>
> There's a lot of planet-killing in SJ.  The
> Beholder-created Ravisher is one such device
> (Wildspace).  The elves destroyed 3 during the Unhuman
> Wars (Borka & two unnamed others, Greyspace &
> Practical Planetology).  Darkspace saw planets & the
> sun destroyed.  Lostspace, Moragspace, & Clusterspace
> all saw their planets destroyed.

"Borka, is too far from the Radient Triangle to make an effective 
demonstration..."

;-)

>> There would be a ton of work involved. I'm not
>> touching this one with a barge pole at the moment,
>> but I'd be interested in tackling it in a couple
>> of years.
>
> Decades, maybe :)  A lot of work involved, that is
> certain.

I meant starting it in a couple of years - not finishing it! Eek!

>> I know that there have been peole in space for eons,
>> but I'm inclined to ignore the elves, where "known
>> space" is concerned.  I think (but am not
>> sure) that "known space" is a human definition.
>
> More of a 'local' definition, I would think.  Of the
> races, the elves and illithids are the only ones I
> could see really viewing 'Known Space' as a localized
> area.  The other races would mostly accept a localized
> definition of 'known space'.

I'd  probably now rather tie this in with some sort of group, rather than a 
race.

>> However, if we can make a few more Grommspace
>> style/Bralspace style crystal sphere PDFs we might
>> be able to create enough crystal spheres that work
>> for low level characters and fill up the 80 worlds
>> quota. How about we re-evaluate this in a few years.
>> If we can add on one crystal sphere per year, then
>> maybe the BtM version of Spelljammer can start to
>> expand known space by one sphere per year.
>
> Bral/Gromm is a lot of work, I can tell you.  And I
> think both really work for low-level characters :)

You don't need to tell me. I looked at your Moon of the Month output and 
tried to work out how fast it would take to flesh out a good sphere. Even 
ignoring the fact that *I* would do the job slower than you, it was a 
excessive amount of time.

I think that a process involving several passes could be more useful to SJ 
DMs.

A map of Known Space could start us off.

A quick run through of the planets within the spheres, could expand on that. 
As could a list of Phlogiston rivers.

After that, each planet within a sphere could be built up to "Moon of the 
Month" standard. Bigger planets could be given sevaral areas with that much 
detail.

After all that was done a campaign setting could be written to pull al the 
details for that sphere together.

>> Given that these planets are important enough for
>> someone to name-drop them without telling us the
>> sphere name, I'd argue that they are as well
>> known as Paris, New York or London. I would be
>> inclined to make most, if not all of the worlds
>> the "most important location" within their own
>> crystal sphere and would be inclined to name the
>> sphere after the planets (i.e. copy the way
>> that Paul named Bralspace). However, I would have
>> to carefully re-read all of the text refering to the
>> individual planets, before I would be 100
>> percent happy with this idea.
>
> Well, with some spheres having NO known planets (Path
> & Prime, for example), those would be perfect places
> for planets with no spheres.  They would also make
> good locations to place the rest of the planets from
> Practical Planetology, if we are so inclined to create
> "known space".

That sounds logical to me, but don't forget to include a reason for the 
sphere name. Pathspace needs a planet named Path or a giant roadway called 
"The Path", or something similar.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://spelljammer.wikia.com/
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/