Re: Just how big is "known space"?

From: "Paul Westermeyer" <westermeyer@???????.net>
Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 9:57 PM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Just how big is "known space"?


> Deciding what is, and is not, known space is the job of the individual 
> gamemaster, I think.  Just one of those 'customizable' aspects of 
> Spelljammer.  I forgot to put it in the table of contents, but my 
> Bralspace book will have a 'Known Space' chapter for my campaigns.  It 
> will be focused on the Triad and the Arcane Inner Sphere.

I'm afraid I don't agree with you here. For me, the biggest problem I had 
with Spelljammer (and many other campaign settings that were otherwise 
great) was that the DM had to finish of the work of the game designer.

It is bad enough that most planets have one or two ports and a surface that 
is otherwise ignored. Expecting a DM to also finish designing spheres and 
map the phlogiston rivers shuts out everyone who doesn't have the time or 
experience to do the job.

Whenevery a product says: "this area has been left to allow the DM to 
develop it" I read "I couldn't be bothered to write this bit". DMs are 
capable of ignoring facts they don't like and re-writing information that 
already exists.

One of the things that I like about (the good) third edition products, is 
that they give you a lot of background detail. That is very useful to a busy 
DM, or one who is just starting out.

I'll agree that some of the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms products are bad 
value for money, but FRCS gives you so much detail of Faerun, that a DM can 
pretty much allow a group of PCs to land a Spelljamming ship anywhere on the 
continent. If you contrast that with some of the Spelljammer products, you 
are pretty much forced into a linear-plot where you only allow PCs to land 
at one or two ports.

If only the game designers hadn't thrown out some of the canon and rebooted 
the system, and if only WotC had given coverage to the rest of Toril, I 
would have been a lot happier with 3rd edition. (Sadly, the good level of 
detail, that you get with Faerun, is lost when you realise that you have to 
convert out of print Al Qadim, Kara-Tur, The Horde and Maztica for a global 
campaign.)

>>From:    David Shepheard <david_shepheard@???????.com>
>>I don't recall Moragspace and Shadowspace. What were they from?
>
> Goblin's Return and Heart of the Enemy.

Thanks.

>>Personally, I'd prefer to have humans in wildspace for at least 1000 
>>years. SJR1 Lost Ships has several hull designs in it that are associated 
>>with previous generations of humans (including the Barge of Ptah, Flying 
>>Pyramid, Lampry Ship and Vipership). We need to allow enough time for 
>>these ship hulls to have become outdated. We also need to create enough 
>>time for Flying Pyramids to become full of undead and for Arch Liches to 
>>have transformed into undead. Wonderseekers are humans who are known to 
>>use potions of longevity, so I'd argue that you need to provide them with 
>>enough time to need to take at least two of these potions.
>
> No matter how you imagine it, it should be assumed there is no unity, but 
> rather that spelljamming comes to different civilizations at different 
> times, and further that it waxes and wanes.

I'm coming to that conclusing too. It makes me wonder which race calls 
"known space" by the name of "known space". I'm guessing it is a human 
thing.

>>>4. Hackjammer, which introduced Hackspace along with
>>>seven other spheres.  Largely, this brought
>>>fan-spheres of Bral, Twilite, & Taur-Utu to "canon"
>>>status.
>>
>>Spiralspace, was already established by the novels. Paul has filled in the 
>>blanks and created a logical continuation for the sphere after the events 
>>on Spiral, but I think the sphere was something that already existed in 
>>canon.
>
> No, it wasn't.  Nothing in The Maelstrom's Eye truly precludes it being 
> set in Realmspace, which is where Roger Moore placed the Rock in other 
> products he wrote.  I just felt it worked bets as its own, stand alone 
> sphere.

Not true, Paul. On page 64, Skakresh says that the Rock of Bral is "on this 
sphere's far side". He is standing on the planet Spirial while saying that. 
That is good enough for me to decide that Bral *is* in Spiralspace according 
to canon. (The book also puts Ironpiece and Minial's Arch in the same 
sphere.)

>>I'm not sure that you would ever get pedantic people to agree that 
>>HackJammer was "Spelljammer canon". Personally, I think we need both it 
>>*and* the inferred crystal sphere made from Shadows of a Spider Moon, but 
>>both tinkered with the SJ rules, so could be treated as variant settings 
>>by people.
>
> Hackjammer doesn't tinker with the rules, it just cleaned up 
> contradictions.  No conversion is needed for Hackjammer to be used with 
> D&D, it plays just fine.  Just like Shadows of the Spider Moon is d20 with 
> no need for conversion.

That is a shame for the 3rd edition fans, who would have wanted a d20 System 
HackJammer, instead of Shadows of the Spider Moon.

>>>Hackjammer's scope was just too small to really create
>>>a whole multi-spheric setting.
>>
>>I don't think that was HackJammer's job. Wasn't its job to take HackMaster 
>>into space? It was sucessful at *that*. Its secondary role as a 
>>Spelljammer add-on would obviously be more limited.
>
> I won't speak for Adam or Rian, but my primary goal was to get the 
> contradictions of the SJ rules ironed out in a print product, and to get 
> some fan stuff into canon.  I treat it as canon, of course:)

I'm sure that was why you three wrote it, but I was thinking of the 
motivation of the HackMaster publishers.

> Speaking of, folks, Hackjammer 75% off right now at Kenzerco.com.  It will 
> soon be out of print due to licensing issues so get it while you can!

It is a big shame that World of Aldrazar is already out of print, as it is 
the groundling wurld in your crystal sphere.

>>I think that people with HackJammer either need to convert Spelljammer to 
>>HackMaster or convert the HackJammer spheres to AD&D or D&D.
>
> You can run anything in Hackjammer with AD&D with no changes:)

I don't play AD&D any more. I'd only be interested in fluff-harvesting or 
converting the rules to d20 System.

>>At 12:14 AM +0000 11/5/07, David Shepheard wrote:
>>>Anyway, that's my take on what should be considered Known Space (aided
>>>greatly by Paul Westermeyer's recently compiled An "official" Spelljammer
>>>Guide to the Spheres, which is a truly invaluable resource). Oh, and 
>>>there
>>>are a couple of fan-created spheres that I would also include in Known 
>>>Space
>>>- notably Grommspace (Adam Miller's version based on Paul Westermeyer's
>>>original).
>>
>>Paul is "the man" and so is Adam. If Paul was into 3rd edition, we would 
>>probably have a working 3e SJCS PDF already. Adam really brings things to 
>>life, as he writes in three dimensions. And as for Grommspace, that *is* a 
>>"must have" for known space (we could probably put Tauruspace in there as 
>>well).
>
> At 10:15 PM -0800 11/4/07, Ben Wafer wrote:
>>[Ben Wafer] Yeah, Tauruspace should probably be in there too. You know, 
>>I've
>>always considered that Adam, Paul, and Rian are the "big three" as far as
>>online SJ writing goes. And that's before they got Hackjammer done!
>  My ears are burning!  Thanks for the kind words, but if I were into 3e it 
> would be going out of print... oh, wait... well, it would have gone out of 
> print long ago.  My approval seems to be the kiss of death for game 
> systems: Space:1889, Spelljammer, Changeling...

Hmm. Yes, that 3.0/3.5 thing is going to mean either converting specific 
things twice or dropping one of the two WotC versions.

If your approval is the "kiss of death", then that would make HackJammer, 
the kiss of undeath, because it brought SJ back from the dead! ;-)

> I haven't done much to keep interest alive discussing on the list though, 
> and my attitude at times truly sucks. :)

You have been a champion of AD&D, and Spelljammer needs champions for every 
edition of D&D.

I can't remember ever disliking your attitude. We have disagreed in the 
past, but you have always argued against opinions rather than arguing 
against posters. Sometimes, I have a idea that needs to be checked for 
weakness and I actually want to talk to people who will take potshots at it. 
A SJ guru, like yourself is very useful for that sort of thing. And that is 
why, I would love it if someone with the same amount of knowledge as you, 
was into 3rd edition (and its mutant half-brother).

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://spelljammer.wikia.com/
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/