Re: Renaming the Unhuman Wars

First off: I confess didn't do any research regarding the Unhuman wars 
before the posting - it was just a thought that crossed my mind and at 
that time I was at my computer with - by chance - enough time to write a 
post. I further confess that research in general is a proficiency I 
seriously have to invest more skill slots (or skill points, if you prefer 
the Player's Options rules *g*) in.


>>I had that weird thought yesterday: Why are the conflicts between elves
>> and the various goblinoid races called the unHUMAN wars?
>
>During second edition D&D, elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings were 
called
>demi-humans. The "unhuman" may have something to do with that. "Demi-
human"
>seems to have been dropped in third edition, and I think that is a good
>thing.

Dito. I hated the term 'demi-human' from the beginning on. 'Demi' 
means 'half' - thats why to me it always smelled a bit racist. I wouldn't 
have a problem with 'demihumans' if the term would have been used as an in-
game name used by humans of a gameworld (provided there's a convincing 
story behind it), but as part of the rules vocabulary it was a very poor 
choice.

[snip]

>> I I didnt have misremembered, however, I propose we find other in-game
>> names for the two wars.
>
>Hmm. I'm not sure if I agree this is necessary. The First World War was
>called the Great War. I'm sure someone could argue that war isn't "great".
>Do you ever hear people complaining about that name?
[snip]

Now that I had time to think about it and after reading all the responses, 
I agree with you: Its better to come up with a story that explains the 
name (plus a few different names the other sides used) than retconning it. 
Like you, I am absolutely no friend of system reboots and retconnings.


>(Groundling) fantasy fiction is full of stories where the humans, elves,
>dwarves and other "good" races are forced to put differences aside and 
fight
>some sort of foe, like orcs. The elves would have been trying to get other
>races onboard, during the war. I'm not sure what is supposed to have
>happened with the human race, as there are so many different groups of
>humans. But we know that they got the hadozee onboard, at this time.


We know the elves took a long time before deciding to start the war*, so I 
imagine the inclusion of other races was something they thought about with 
the same care. One possible argument against allies: The elves saw their 
ships as superior. Having inferior non-elven spelljammers involved in the 
conflict would mean a higher probability of spelljamming helms falling 
into goblinoid hands and thus strenghtening them. ...just a thought...

*btw: I vaguely see a huge potential for fan-fic stories about that 
process. There might have been an incident that was the last straw that 
broke the back of the elven camel, like the raid of a groundling elven 
settlement by a spaceborn orcish fleet. Such an incident might even been 
helped by elves who wanted the war to start... 

>I think that some human societies would have taken the elf side, some 
would
>have taken the orc side and some would have tried to stay out of the
>conflict (just like the US Government in both World Wars).

I have a hard time seeing humans voluntarily taking the orcish/goblinoid 
side, but yes, it is possible.

>[snip]>
>I could go on, but the point is that there were logical reasons for those
>names being chosen at the time. Today we know the names are not accurate,
>but somebody thought they were. All we need to do is reverse time and 
create
>a society where calling these races "unhumans" is normal. Then it doesn't
>matter if those reasons don't apply today. In fact if some of the people 
of
>today, think that the Unhuman War could have been handled better, that 
would
>be a bonus.

Agreed. 


>> An alternative would be that "unhuman wars" is how the humans of 
wildspace
>> call them. It would at least explain the humano-centric feel (but would
>> still be a bit  illogical, see the falkland-argument).
>
>"Unhuman War" sounds like it is in the common tongue, and common is the 
name
>of the D&D language spoken by humans.
>
>I don't think this name is so illogical in a fantasy universe where humans
>call elves, dwarves, gnomes and halflings "demi-humans". If these races 
are
>worth "half a human", then it isn't a great leap for orcs, goblinoids and
>their allies to be declared to be "non-human".


Humans calling elves "half-/demi-humans"...hmmm... given the obvious 
superior lifespan, the superior elven works of art and magic, their 
superiority in space etc, I have a hard time picturing a human society 
(even groundlings) that sees elves as inferior. The same applies to 
dwarves: there are too many things they are vastly better in than humans 
(including the very important aspect of their lifespan!) to see them 
as "inferior". Sure, humans too are better in some things than elves or 
dwarves, but even from a humanocentric perspective its hard to argue that 
humans are generally better than elves or dwarves.

On the other side, I can imagine human superiority applied to gnomes and 
halflings, as their strenghts are not as obvious than the ones of elves & 
dwarves. 

And on just one more 'other side', I can see humans coming up with 
the "demihuman"-term because of a war between them and elves and/or 
dwarves. The (perceived) atrocities of their elven/dwarven enemy might 
have led to a mindset that they are 'worth only half a human'. 

However, I have a hard time seeing this (surely locally used term) making 
the leap in wildspace and spreading wide enough to be known throughout the 
spheres.


>> I think the elves might call it something along the lines of 'the great
>> cleaning' or 'Corellon's battle' (referring to the mythic battle between
>> Corellon and Gruumsh).
>
>It would be good for this war to be given an elvish name, in order to help
>make the elves of wildspace more three dimensional. However, they should 
be
>alternate names - *not* replacements. The SJ universe needs to have 
updates
>that are very careful tweaks. I'm not in favour of rebooting the campaign
>setting.
>(In other words, I think it is essential that we retain the name "Unhuman
>War", but am in favor of anything that expands the SJ universe.)
>
>If you are going to make an elvish name, I will expect you to do it with
>elvish words. I don't know anything about elven battle poetry, but I would
>guess that elves like that might have a poetic name for The Unhuman War.


Fully agreed. I didn't have the time to find a proper elvish-sounding 
name, but both propositions were meant to be used in elvish.

...and agreed as well to your 'careful tweaks'!


>We have canon material (from Arcane Age RPG products) that shows that the
>elves used their ships to harrass and surpress the Netherese spelljamming
>ships. This tells us that the "Unhumans" are not the only race that the
>elves have been against - they have also seen humans as a threat in the
>past. I'm not sure what the Shou Lung/Elf relationship is supposed to be
>like, but they seem to be the only large organised group of humans that 
have
>an influence in wildspace.
>There has to be a reason why the elven navy thinks Netherese Humans are
>"bad" and Shou Lung Humans are "good". There has to be a reason why the
>elven navy thinks that unhumans are so bad, that they need to be denied
>access to wildspace.

I always imagined the relationship between Elf & Shou Lung being on the 
verge between peace and hostility, as a ready-to-use element for DMs. Its 
a situation where a good plot (diplomatic or otherwise) can let the PC 
play a vital role in realmspace-wide developement. Of course, we would 
need an in-game explanation for the different elvish perception of 
Netherese and Shou Lung. The Netherese snootiness might have had something 
to do with it...


>Exactly how much research have you done on the Unhuman War? LotV seems to
>suggest that the elves took several hundred years to make the decision to
>start a war. There has to be a lot of clues hidden in SJ products, to tell
>you what events led up to the war. I think we need to review individual
>references to be able to have a meaningful discussion about this.


As I sad above: no research. It was just an idea that came to my mind and 
found it's way in this board before I could check with the books. Mea 
culpa. ;o)

>There is only one thing I would like to say. We have political correctness
>in real life, but it has no place in a fantasy game. If you want to make 
two
>alternate names, then I think that each side should have a name that makes
>*their* side look universally good and the *other* side look universally
>bad. And if those names are as inaccurate as the common version, that is
>fine by me. I just need an explanation that I can buy.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

I just realized that "unhuman" has an equivalent in the elfish tongue:
Afaik, the term for non-elves, "N'Tel Quess" (spelling???) means "not of 
the people", where 'people' stands for 'elves'. Perhaps that sparks some 
ideas about the origin of the term "unhuman"?


Tauster
}:o)