Re: Faeriespace - Was: Fairyspace Expansion

From: "Charles Taylor" <nerik@?????????.?????.??.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2007 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Faeriespace - Was: Fairyspace Expansion


> David Shepheard <david_shepheard@???????.com> wrote:
>
>> From: "Charles Taylor" <nerik@?????????.?????.??.uk>
>> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 1:12 PM
>> Subject: [SPELLJAMMER] Fairyspace Expansion
>>> Thoughts on the Planets
>>> -----------------------
>>>
>>> There are 8 planets (and 16 suns) in Fairyspace, divided equally between
>>> Upgood (The Seelie or 'Bright' court) and Vastdarken (The Unseelie
>>> or 'Dark' court).
>>
>> Where does this idea of two courts come from? I couldn't find it in the 
>> the
>> original Crystal Spheres text. It sounds suspiciously like some form of
>> government and that would clash with the section about Aelivere (and
>> possibly the concept of shrakma).
>>
>> I think you should stick with the original idea that there is no 
>> government.
>
> Traditional Faerie Lore, there is the 'Bright' or seelie court, and
> the 'Dark' or Unseelie court. Think not so much law court as royal
> court - there is a certain amount of social status among traditional
> faerie lore. There are 'Upper Court' and 'Lower Court' Sidhe
> (Fairies), Upper Court resemble D&D elves, lower court include pixies,
> brownies, leprechauns, etc.

I see. So rather than these creatures forming some decision making process, 
you are just setting them up in a social structure of some sort?

I might argue over the relative position of individual races, or the way 
that decisions are made, but I could live with this idea.

>>> I've decided that each court gains one world of each
>>> elemental type, but substituting liveworlds for fire worlds (we have the
>>> 16
>>> suns for fire worlds, if we need any).
>>
>> It is such a waste to take this weird tree-based-star-system and turn the
>> planets back into "normal" planets. I think they should *all* be 
>> liveworlds.
>> The worlds grow on the (unnamed) tree. I think they should all be 
>> gigantic
>> apples, or some other fruit. In fact, I think there is a case to be made
>> that the entire system (tree, planets and suns) is one liveworld.
>
> Actually, a good idea, with further thought I'm going away from my
> initial elemental world idea.

Don't bin the idea, I'm sure it could work very well in a new crystal 
sphere.

>> (I'm going to give the tree a name, for the sake of this discussion. I'm
>> going to call it the "Shrakma Tree". However, that isn't an official 
>> name,
>> and someone else might come up with a better discussion.)
>>
>> If you make the planets giant apples you can pick a different type of 
>> apple
>> as the basis for each planet and give each one surface features similar 
>> to
>> that type of apple. Lakes (or even seas) similar to cider could also add 
>> to
>> the uniqueness. Real apples sometimes have worms, so I think that their
>> could be giant underground worms*. This could create an unusual 
>> "underdark"
>> with long smooth tunnels.
>>
>> (* = These could be the same size as the spice worms in Dune.)
>>
> Also good ideas - noted.

Thanks.

> One idea I've had since I wrote all this the description in 'Crystal
> Spheres' implies that the inhabitants don't just live on the planets,
> but on the tree itself - that is a huge amount of living space - this
> sphere could end up being one of the most populated known!

If more people live in cities than in deserts, you could probably project 
the same logic onto the tree and have the people living there spread out so 
much that the population doesn't get too high.

> [snip obsolete idea]

<countership - apple stuff>

>>> Inhabitants
>>> -----------
>>>
>>> Aelivere appears to be a local god-like power, and could be considered 
>>> to
>>> be equivalent to Oberon, which begs the question, if he's Oberon, who's
>>> Titania?
>>
>> Although Aelivere, seems to be god like (or at least avatar-like), the
>> locals believe in "shrakma" - they do not worship gods. Even though 
>> Aelivere
>> "invented" shrakma, I'd probably like to build on the idea and have local
>> clerics, druids, paladins, rangers, blackguards and other divine
>> spellcasters gain power from "the force of shrakma". The beauty of 
>> shrakma
>> is that it can be both good and evil, so you can do whatever you want 
>> with
>> it.
>>
>> But divine servants who devote themselves to, and gain power from, 
>> shrakma,
>> would give this crystal sphere a religious culture that was divorced from
>> the usual racial pantheons. I personally think that helps separate these
>> races from the same races elsewhere.
>
> Traditionally, fairies tended to be somewhat antagonistic of religion
> - ok, in 'real' faerie lore, they were actually antagonistic of the
> Christian church (which ties into an idea that they were 'faded' pagan
> deities). The old D&D supplement "Tall Tales of the Wee Folk" came up
> with a way of applying this sort of concept to the Mystaran cosmology.
>
> My view of Aelivere is that he is not a god as they are traditionally
> thought of, he neither needs or desires worship, but he does have the
> sort of power level you would expect of a god.

My latest thoughts are that he should be a dryad of the sphere sized tree.

>>> All local creatures should be 'fairy' variants (for those using 3.x, 
>>> they
>>> should all be of Type 'Fay'), many such beings will have illusion or
>>> charm-
>>> type magical abilities of some sort. No native creatures are ever 
>>> affected
>>> by natural agin This includes the local demi-humans.
>>
>> I don't think I like that particular suggestion. The canon material 
>> doesn't
>> say that these are fairy races that look like other races. On top of that
>> calling a creature an "elf", but making it something else, could be
>> confusing.
>
> Most of the 'standard' D&D races are based upon (however loosely)
> mythological beings that were described as 'fay' - especially elves.
> Forgotten Realms deep history (at least, according to the chronology I
> found on Candlekeep) has a close relationship between the Fay and
> elves (IIRC, the fay introduced elves to Toril).

I realise that, but D&D calls them "humanoids". I'd rather keep the 
"humanoid races" within Faeriespace as humanoids. By all means strip out 
their gods and tinker with their culture (and maybe even tinker with their 
favored class), but changing their race will alter the way spells work on 
them. That brings in too many things that need to be playtested.

>> Certain fairy creatures are able to charm other races, and I would prefer 
>> to
>> view Aelivere as a fairy demi-god who has the ability to charm entire 
>> races
>> into living under the principle of "shrakma".
>>
>> I'd like the Crystal of the Moon to be some form of artifact that has the
>> power to transform newcomers into "stepford wives" (or "stepford 
>> husbands"),
>> although I'd like the process to be much much more gradual (with 
>> newcomers
>> changing their opinions rather than being replaced by dopplegangers).
>
> Interesting idea - it may be able to more than just this ;-)

It has to do *something*. If someone thinks they can make it do something 
even better, then I'll be interested in listening to their ideas.

> [snip - comments on races]
>
> Ok, noted, and yes, I agree we need more variety - we have a whole
> sphere to populate!

One way to do that would be to make the races from page 19 the biggest races 
(with over 99 percent of the population being from one of these races), but 
allow any other race from any D&D book to get planted their as an "imported 
race".

So you could have a ship of tinker gnomes land and "go native".

>>> Mratzal Elves: Unseeli sidhe, _not_ drow, they resemble Ggaaarin, but 
>>> many
>>> file their teeth into points. Most live on Beastra.
>>
>> Huh? You stole my drow! I want them back.
>>
>> ;-)
>
> Not all evil elves are (or should be) drow - but if you really want
> them back, I'll revert the Mratzal - but I'm still have some evil,
> filed-teeth schemers somewhere here ;-)

I'm not against the Mratzal Drow (or another tribe of drow) filing their 
teeth. Don't forget that these guys are not ruled by Lolth and would need 
their own culture that is unique to Faeriespace. Maybe you could have a 
tribe of drow that are lead by a drow vampire*.

* = For added effect, you could invent a drow vampire who came to 
Faeriespace from Realmspace and was once an enemy of King Brindor and Dorin.

> [snip ideas about drow] - interesting ideas.

>>> Wellow Goblins: Most have some form of magical abilities, usually live 
>>> on
>>> Beastra or Krag.
>>
>> I would want to put goblin kingdoms on the planets of Vastdarken and have
>> them fight the other evil races for territory.
>>
>> There are a lot of races in the description, that you have ommitted. I'd
>> like each race to either have its own territory or to live among other
>> races.
>
> Yup, I'm still thinking on those. Plus there is a whole lot of faerie
> lore as well.

If you look at the 3.5 SRD, you will see that many of these races are 
playable races, so I'd like them all to eventually be written up with the 
assumption that a DM *might* want to offer all Upgood races as PC options. 
It would be cool if someone out there could use Faeriespace as a background 
for PCs used elsewhere.

> [snip]
>
>> I'm sorry, but I don't like the time changing effects at all. They are 
>> far
>> too disruptive. If I jump a campaign forward 100 years I'd have to create 
>> a
>> new Krynn a new Toril a new Oerth, etc, etc, etc.
>
> One of the hazard of visiting a faerie mound ;-)

As long as this is an optional rule that isn't hardwired into everything, it 
won't get in my way.

>> I'd be open to other faerie effects (like evil creatures getting caught 
>> up
>> in an irrisistable dance if they try to invade Upgood). But I'd like to 
>> tie
>> anything like that into actual Fey creatures. I'd like them as a group to 
>> be
>> more powerful than the non-Fey races.
>
> Or vice versa - I was thinking of having 'Faerie Lords & Ladies' who
> would have exceptional abilities that could be used as you describe.

Hmm. In 3rd edition terms, that sounds like it is going to be a template (or 
maybe two templates - "Upgood Creature" and "Vastdarken Creature").

>>> Another feature is the 'Fairy Roads' these appear to be portals linking
>>> Fairyspace to many other worlds (like Toril and Oerth). It is possible
>>> that
>>> these were more common in the past, and were more frequently used.
>>
>> While this is a good way to link this sphere to other spheres, it would
>> imply that you would get non-Fey creatures in Faeriespace.
>
> Granted - although, if they stay long enough, they may become fay.

I definately think that everyone who moves here permanantly (or at least the 
children of people who move here permanantly) should be "encouraged" to 
follow the rules of shrakma.

> Another idea, although I'm not sure where I'm going with this, is that
> the Great Tree could link to Yggdrasil, allowing access to some outer
> planes. Also, there may be a connection with the world of Garden in
> Realmspace?

I'm not keen on those ideas either*, but I'm sure that Planescape fans would 
love to have alternatives to Spelljamming.

* = My main reason for being against this, is that I like the simplicity of 
a gigantic tree, and that joining it in with other ideas distracts from that 
simplicity.

<snip>
>>> The IEN try to maintain a presence, but have a problem that their crews
>>> tend to 'go native' after a few decades (or weeks, depending upon your
>>> point of view) of service.
>>
>> If elves "go native" then that would imply that there were non-fey elves
>> (i.e. proper elves) in the sphere. I'd prefer to have things that way. In
>> fact, I'd like the elves to be "charmed" by the principle of "shrakma" 
>> and
>> to decide that their previous mission was not important.
>>
>> Putting the time-distortion effects to one side, I'd like the existing 
>> elves
>> of Faeriespace to help charm newcomers. I'd like them to be so sure that
>> "shrakma" is better than the elven culture elsewhere that they act a 
>> little
>> bit like a religious cult.
>>
>> I don't know if you have seen the episode of Star Trek where Spock 
>> becomes a
>> hippy, or the film where his brother brainwashes everyone into going to
>> visit "god", but I'm thinking of local elves that are that zelious about
>> "shrakma". (And I'd make similar sorts of suggestions for all the other
>> races.)
>
> Yup, seen them both ;-).

> [snip - trying to make this post of reasonable size ;-)]
>
> Good ideas/comments about my ideas.

Thanks.

>>> Most other organisations have no or littele presence in this sphere.
>>
>> No presence? I say bring 'em on. But have each one assimilated over time.
>
> I just could think of what to do with 'em when I wrote that.

If this was to go up on Beyond the Moons, you wouldn't need to cover all the 
organisations. You (or someone else) could add other organisations as time 
went on. I think the main thing is to not close the door on other options.

>> Write the organisations you don't want to use into Faeriespace's past and
>> have them as organisations that have been totally absorbed. For example:
>
> [snip lots of very good ideas - well done!]

Thanks.

>> I'm sure you could do similar things to all the organisations that are 
>> not
>> closely tied in with specific crystal spheres.
>>
>>> Adventure Ideas
>>> ---------------
>>>
>>> Either of the three orgainsations above lose contact with one of their
>>> Fairyspace assets, and send the PCs to investigate (maybe the lost base 
>>> is
>>> just 'timeslipped'... or not).
>>
>> The plot from Crystal Spheres would be my preferred introduction to
>> Faeriespace.
>
> Agree

I think that the Adventure Ideas need to be a series of things that can be 
used as a "sequel to Crystal Spheres".

(Using some sort of NPC who knows T'Laan might be one hook.)

>>> Sun Seeds (from Crystal Spheres) are /incredibly/ powerful items, maybe
>>> the
>>> PCs find that they need some more, in which case, what /other/ 'little
>>> jobs' is Aelivere going to find the PCs to do as payment ;-).
>>
>> I'd suggest making lots of other special materials that can only be found 
>> in
>> Faeriespace. This would allow the PCs to negotiate with any of the local
>> factions.
>>
>> But if you want them to go to Aelivere and buy more Sun Seeds, then I'd
>> probably try to think of creatures or NPCs that are beyond the influence 
>> of
>> shrakma. Good PCs probably wouldn't fight good NPCs, but they could be 
>> sent
>> to attack a group of evil clerics, who are trying to build a temple.
>>
>> You could probably also send the PCs to fight pirates and other dangerous
>> new invaders.
>
> Thanks, a lot of very good ideas there...

You're welcome. A lot of your ideas were good too. I wouldn't have been 
inspired to write if there were not.

>...I'm still kind of partial to
> my ideas about the various races - but I need to think thing through a
> bit.

I'm not against your ideas about the races. I'm more against you changing 
their racial type from "humanoid" to "fey" or going against canon 
information from Crystal Spheres. As long as you don't introduce things that 
could be seen, by fans of the original adventure, as "continuity errors", 
I'm more than happy to see you run with the ideas of introducing more faerie 
mythology.

I think that these races have the potential to be great PCs as well as great 
NPCs, so want to see them developed.

"Pay no attention to the kender behind the curtain."
David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/