Re: Planejammer

From: "Loki" <george.williams.iv@?????.com>
To: <SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 4:01 AM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Planejammer


>> I was talking to Loki about this a long time ago. I can't remember who
>> came
>> up with what, but as Planewalkers use "keys" to get between planes, we
>> though that Planejammers would need keys for their ships to make the 
>> jump.
>
> As I recall you were the one who suggested importing the portal key 
> mechanic
> to work with particularly tuned helms.  Still a terrific idea, and one I 
> am
> soon test driving in my current game.

I'd be very glad to know how that playtesting turns out.

> ***********
>> * SPOILER *
>> ***********
>> This section contains information about how Clusterspace works and
>> shouldn't
>> be read by anyone playing (or planning to play) in a Clusterspace game.
>>
>> The Pirates of Gith are said to steal elven ships, because they can take
>> them to the Astral Plane. I would argue that means that either the elven
>> ships or the Gith are the key. Because the Pirates of Gith don't do this
>> with other ships, I would say that the nature of elven ships is the key.
>
> Third possibility is that the pirates of gith know which key will work 
> with
> an elven ship. I prefer this one as I am not fond of living, sentient 
> portal
> keys. Makes it WAY too easy for those particular sentients....

OK. A key tuned to a particular ship material works for me. That would imply 
that you could potentially find a different key to take different types of 
ships onto the astral plane.

I think that hull plating might make a fun key as it would let you take any 
ship hull from wildspace to any plane, but you would only be able to set a 
ship up for one plane at a time. (Ceramic tiles would make a good hull 
plating for a ship that people want to take onto the Astral Plane.) We could 
also make it harder to get ships onto specific planes by requiring plating 
in very expensive materials (like gold or platinum).

> Coincidentally, Clusterspace stops non-elven ships leaving the sphere.
>> Clusterspace has an unusual relationship to its planes and I would
>> therefore
>> take a logical jump and infer that the crystal sphere needs the same key
>> as
>> the Astral Plane.
>
> Cannot say that I see one as needing to follow the other here. A key, yes,
> but why des it need to be the same one as the astral? I would go so far as
> to say that the key, by definition, has to be different. It is leading to 
> a
> different plane, much like trying t get into a demiplane.  Now perhaps the
> key to the sphere is  a living ship and the key to the astral is an elf
> raised plant, you could cross both barriers and might npot even know what
> actually activated the planeshift. Just an example here...

Fair enough. I think you are right with objects like an elven ship 
containing more than one key. However, I'll leave this for a Clusterspace 
discussion.

>> *******************
>> * END OF SPOILER *
>> *******************
>>
>> Something else might be needed on top of the key, to take a ship onto the
>> Astral Plane but I would say we have one key on our keyring. And if you
>> can
>> work through the other planes, you can look for keys for taking ships 
>> onto
>> them too.
>
> What gave Dave the idea, as I recall, was my talking about the original
> Plane Shift spell in which you needed tuning forks as the spell 
> components.
> Depending on the composition of the tuning fork used you end up in Carceri
> or the Mount Celestia.

Now I remember talking about this.

> Baatezu or Tannari from the Great Wheel probably would fight. But I'm
>> arguing that they wouldn't normally get to Krynnspace because of the
>> Barrier
>> of Krynnspace. If there are Baatezu or Tannari native the Krynnspace's
>> Abyss, they would serve the evil gods of the Holy Orders of the Stars and
>> may not be so likely to be at war with each other.
>
> If they are Ba'atezu and Tanar'ri then they will fight at the slightest
> provocation. It is in their nature to do so. While the Ba'atezu being 
> lawful
> might refrain for a time due to orders the chaos and rage filled Tanar'ri
> would not. CAVEAT: I know naught of Krynnspace or Dragonlance other than
> tinker gnomes and the sphere is psi-dead. .

It is a real shame that you don't know much about Krynnspace and 
Dragonlance, because I would love the two ENnie award winning communities to 
set up a joint project group to develop the Gate of Souls, Dome of Creation, 
Hidden Vale and Abyss (Krynnspace) as locations full of Dragonlance 
outsiders that a planewalker could visit. I was hoping that you would be 
someone who would have the knowledge to help.

>> Celestians
>> > Celestians as they have knowledge of spelljamming travel also of
>> > planetravel. I remember clerics of Celestian in Sigil, and the god is
>> also
>> > in the Planescape boxed set.
>>
>> Celestians are definately the number one experts in Planejamming. I think
>> that some will specialise in Planewalking and others will specialise in
>> Spelljamming. The Celestians who engage in Planejamming are probably a
>> small
>> sub-set of the church.
>
> Actually I think that subset is comprised entirely of players in my
> campaigns!  There are some Celestians that  Planewalk and Spelljamm, but 
> the
> Planejammers are  few indeed.

I'm guessing that 10 percent of "Planewalking Celestians" have tried 
spelljamming and 10 percent of "Spelljamming Celestians" have tried 
planewalking and maybe 1 percent of Celestians routinely combine the two. 
Planejamming needs to be something that is very rare, to explain the fact 
that this "inferred campaign setting" has not been mentioned before.

> I'm not so sure that people living on the Material Plane would need to 
> build
>> their own Outer Plane. Doing something like making Zivilyn hop to the 
>> Dome
>> of Creation, could be seen as a way to achive immortality in paradise, 
>> but
>> I'm not sure that making a *new* Outer Plane would have any advantages.
>> What
>> sort of Outer Plane were you thinking of?
>
> Creation of a "new" plane is  a titanic undertaking and requires millenia.
> No one is sure it is even possible, although there are Obyryth legends 
> (the
> demons that  preceeded the Tanar'ri) of a simple, more primitive
> configuration of planes.

Is there an article about that cosmology on Planewalker?

> I find that one f the best ways to approach "new planes," and such is to
> figure out where they belong as subrealms within existing planes of the
> great wheel. After all, most planes are infinite and there is room for a
> myriad of eternities in the great wheel.

That might be the "best way" for you and Planescape fans, but Dragonlance 
fans seem strongly dislike the idea of "their cosmolgy" being a subset of 
The Great Wheel. It is one of the reasons why some of them have been against 
Planescape (and for some reason Spelljammer).

I would like to see Planescape fans make a set of Dragonlance Outer Planes 
that Great Wheel fans could use as parts of other planes, but Dragonlance 
fans could use as a separate cosmology.

>> So anything that happened must explain the severed conection of Krynn 
>> with
>> > the Great Wheel- maybe the severed connection its part of the Zivilyn
>> > punishment- and some debris surely remain.
>
> Precedent: the Mulhorrandi powers were blocked from Realmspace by Epic
> magic. Ptah had to spelljamm into the sphere with aspects of the deities 
> in
> order to re-connect them with their people. Obviously the planar
> permeability of crystal spheres can be altered. Epic magic is good like
> that.

Hmm. Why would Ptah need to spelljam in when he lives in the transitive 
planes? Surely those planes are universal and touch all campaign 
worlds/crystal spheres?

I thought the Mulhorandi Pantheon was blocked by the other gods of 
Realmspace and was only let in after Ptah made a deal with them.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/