Re: Tech & SJ

From: "Adam Miller" <night_druid3000@?????.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 12:48 AM


> --- Steven <steven.james.1@??????????.??.uk> wrote:
>> Thus, like the Internet and the Renaissance, it
>> would indeed, allow and provoke a vast amount of
>> change, new ideas and technology etc. But since
>> not all forms of tech or magic may work in some
>> spheres, or practical problems abound, you'd have a
>> mix, as SJ does.
>
> Heh, time to go into a bit of a rant.
>
> Tech & SJ
>
> One pet peeve of mine that I've developed lately is
> the people saying "the natural progression of SJ is to
> steamships & guns!"  Um, no its not.  In fact, the two
> do not mix well at all, if you understand the
> fundamentals of the SJ universe.
>
> And why won't they work?  Simple, its all about the
> air.  In SJ, a ship has a very limited air supply.
> Steam and guns foul air, very quickly in fact.  Its
> not a matter for ships on the water; wind quickly
> carries the smoke away.  But on a ship with an
> enclosed air envelop?  Guns would be more deadly to
> the user than the target!  A broadside from a galleon,
> movie-style, would instantly foul a ship's air supply.
> A big ship could easily kill itself through simply
> firing its guns.  And it would create a lovely
> smokescreen that would blind the ship using guns,
> while a ship not using guns would not be so impaired.
<snip>

Thank you for working all of that out!

I have had bad feelings about "Steamjammer" for a long time, but you have 
really pulled out all the reasons why it wouldn't work.

I do think that these sort of things would be more viable for use on 
groundling settlements. So if someone wanted to do a Tinker Gnome dominated 
crystal sphere called Steamspace, I think it might fairly interesting. But 
seeing as a 1st level caster can power a Minor Helm, I really don't think 
this sort of stuff should be onboard ships.

I would mostly like to see it used to replace the role of the windmill or 
watermill. And I would like it to be dangerous and bad for the environment. 
A nomadic Tinker Gnome community that was slowly moving through an asteroid 
belt as their technology contaminated their home again and again. (If they 
planted trees and bushes as they left, they might be able to make a slow 
circuit of the belt and come back to a healthy environment.)

Guns are a slightly different situation. They *do* have all the 
disadvantages you mention in wildspace (and obviously can't be used in the 
flow), but there are few specific situations where they *might* still be 
useful.

Point blank range attacks against an asteroid are one of these situations. 
If a friendly looking ship was to fly up to Bral, as if they were coming in 
to dock, they could get into Bral's atmosphere and attack one of its defence 
towers with a broadside attack. As for that smoke, it would blow into Bral's 
atmosphere as the ship flew through it. If the helmsman turned away from 
Bral he could exit its atmosphere and attempt to use the smoke (in Bral's 
atmosphere) to cover his own retreat.

I'm guessing you would need to have some form of illusion protecting the 
guns. Alternatively a highly talented evil artist could cover the gun ports 
of the ship with canvas and paint a picture that makes it look like a 
non-combat variant of the same hull. You would probably only get one or two 
volleys off, but that might kill the tower. And if you could co-ordinate two 
sneak attacks at the same time you could perhaps knock out enough weapons to 
allow ships to land and try to take Bral by force.

This would be a very risky attack technique, but I can imagine the Scro 
having artists and illusionists talented enough to make a sneak attack 
possible and a supply of expendable ground troops willing to take out an 
asteroid valuable to the Elves.

> And really, what would a SJ captain be trying to solve
> by using steam engines?  An expensive helm & helmsman.
> But a steam engine wouldn't get him anywhere any
> faster; speeds are set at 100 MMPD.

The supply of helmsman can be expanded if we allow anyone with spellcasting 
ability (and a spellcasting level) to power a helm.

In 3rd edition this would allow people taking certain prestige classes to 
increase the pool of helmsmen. In Realmspace I would use the Harper Scout 
PrC from FRCS as a helmsman.

I also think that a god like Celestian would be fairly happy for ships 
officers, who already worship him, to multi-class and take a level of 
cleric. Multi-class clerics who serve on ships could act as messengers for 
the church.

> So where do I see SJ tech developing?  Look to the
> elves.  Starfly plants are ingenious for making ships.
> Firstly, you create a ship that is still a living
> plant.  Something that freshens the air, extending the
> air a ship has.  We have a few examples of that
> happening (namely from Sea of Sorrow).  Its slightly
> more flimsy than a thick wood hull (AR 7 for MoW as
> opposed to AR 6 for a hammership), but easier to sail
> (MC C vs. MC D).  And it may be possible to grow
> enormous orchards of thousands of ships at once,
> probably with only minimal pruning and maintenance.

I've got slightly mixed feelings about plants that refresh air. I think they 
are a good idea, but need to have their capacity to generate air limited.

I would actually like to see SJ ships have their air supply given as 
man/days. If plants that clean air are added, I would like to see their 
capacity also given in man/days. This would allow you to track the air by 
subtracting one man/day per crewman/passenger and then adding the capacity 
of the plants back onto that result. This sort of system would be more able 
to deal with the number of crewmen or plants changing in the middle of a 
voyage. (To be honest, I'd like to see a "character sheet" for ships where 
the maximum air and current air could be recorded.)

There are some creatures (like the Draconians of Krynnspace) that use less 
than 1 man/day of air per day. I would also argue that sentient plant 
creatures should breath out 1 man/day of fresh air each day.

Talking of plants that generate air, I would like your thoughts on what 
happens when you get *too much* fresh air. If during the day, your crew 
breath 10 days worth of air, but your plants generate 12 days of air you are 
eventually going to have an atmosphere that is 100 percent fresh. What 
happens *after* that day?

Fantasy air doesn't have oxygen in it (like real air does), but it might be 
good to have it go in the "opposite direction" to foul air.

How about having plants (including plant monsters and PC plant creatures) 
breath in whatever stuff makes air foul for animals. From a plant's point of 
view, air that is "too fresh" could become "foul for plants". Eventually air 
could become "deadly for plants" and they would suffocate.

> For propulsion, I see Splendid Sails & Onrey Oars as a
> more logical progression.  They're cheap, and don't
> use a spellcaster.  They have their limitations, but
> I'd also keep a minor helm aboard for emergencies like
> landing & combat.  Its a far less complex solution to
> the "problem" of helms.

How about having necromancers who animate skeletons to row the oars of 
ships? That could drastically cut the (air breathing) crew on some of the 
groundling ships.

There should be alternatives to spelljamming helms that work in the 
atmosphere, but I would like it if spelljamming helms were the only thing 
that could move a ship faster than tactical speed. This would allow people 
to create planets with lots of flying ships, but little or no spelljamming 
capacity.

> Weapon evolution would be more along the lines of
> developing more powerful catapults & ballista, such as
> dual ballista & the Vodoni weapons, or for the REALLY
> wealthy, magic weapons.  Especially magic weapons that
> chuck smokebombs at a their foes.  Destroy a foe's
> air, you kill them in one fell swoop.

Even mastercrafted versions of catapults and ballista would be a good start. 
Once you have *them* you can start making weapons with magical pluses or a 
greater range.

If you can have a "repeating crossbow" then it should also be possible to 
make a "repeating ballista". It would probably take longer to reload, but 
would help you throw a lot of shots at the enemy.

It should be possible for a spell to create catapult shots using material 
from the Elemental Plane of Earth. Maybe they could even be summoned 
material that causes damage, but vanishes after a number of rounds.

Smokebombs are not the only way to go with special weapons, especially as 
you make it hard for your own crew to board a ship. I would suggest that 
infinity vine would be almost as good for disabling a ship's manoeuvrability 
and weapon capability. In fact, infinity vine could help slavers capture 
slaves.

The vacuum of wildspace blocks certain attacks and I think that magic that 
gets past this could be interesting. Magical objects that can temporarily 
store destructive sounds would allow long range sonic attacks.

Spells that cause deck planks (on wooden ships) to sprout spikes would be 
hinder movement as would spells that coat decks with oil. (Actually, you 
could make a deck slippery with real oil and then perhaps try to set it on 
fire.)

I even think it would be fun if a necromancer could bundle skeletons up into 
a ball that can be fired from a catapult, only to animate and attack 
anything near it when it lands. (Just imagine if this was a tactic used in a 
distant crystal sphere during the First Unhuman War and thousands of 
skeletons that missed their targets were floating around waiting for 
something to bump into them.)

I think that advanced weapon training is also a way to go. SJ NPCs (and 
maybe even PCs) should be able to take weapon feats that help them use ship 
weapons more effectively.

Prestige classes like the Arcane Archer have the ability to use spells with 
a longbow or shortbow:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm

I think that it should be possible for a SJ prestige class to do the same 
sort of thing with a ballista. (From a 2nd edition point of view there could 
be ship weapon specialist kits for wizards or maybe even Priests of war 
gods.)

> So, in the context of the SJ universe, I would see the
> "state of the art" ship being something not unlike a
> MoW, perhaps with a different layout, with wing-like
> Splendid Sails and armed to the teeth with Vodoni
> double-ranged ballista.  Certainly not a steamship
> armed with cannons! :D

Plant ships that were true plants would be great, but I'd like to see them 
have a fully worked out life cycle. These plants should naturally float 
around wildspace and pollinate each other. Spelljamming can help speed up 
the breeding process by allowing the plants to move at spelljamming speed. 
Carnivorous plants would fit in well with this sort of concept, because they 
would be a big hazard on the planets of this sphere.

Gigantic space-bees and other insects would also fit in well with a sphere 
that has plants floating around in wildspace. So you could look at how a 
Comet Steed works and use that to create a creature that was the original 
inspiration for the spelljamming ship called the dragonfly.

I would like to see crystal spheres become more individual. So I would like 
to see some advanced ship types that only work as system ships within 
specific crystal spheres.

If someone in Realmspace made a Shadow Helm that used the Shadow Weave to 
surround a ship with a Shield of Shadows, that would be an advancement that 
could change Realmspace, without affecting other crystal spheres. The device 
would also be most useful to worshipers of Shar.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/