Re: Tech & SJ

You're forgetting the most significant drawback to steamships in SJ.

How do you plan on moving a ship powered by a boiler fire through  
phlogiston?

Without the ability to pass between crystal spheres, there really is  
no point to having Spelljammer rules at all.

This isn't to say there isn't a place for limited use of firearms,  
bombards and even non-magical engines (the furnace golem comes to  
mind). But in terms of practicality there is a huge tradeoff to be  
made, and it's not one that the majority of spelljammer captains (nor  
the major fleets of space) find a worthwhile exchange.

Still, the idea of a practical steamer using SJ mechanics is  
intriguing. It even has a Twain-esque sentimental appeal to it. I  
wonder if it were possible to design smokestacks such that they could  
extend beyond a ship's air envelope? I notice that the masts of most  
vessels are often included in a ship's air bubble, but is it possible  
to extend something beyond the bubble? That would, for a steam engine  
at least, provide some method to power a non-magical local-wildspace  
civilian mode of transport without fouling the air. But given the  
costs that are likely involved in developing something like that, it  
might end up being cheaper to just hire spellcasting pilots  :-p

On Aug 26, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Adam Miller wrote:

> --- Steven <steven.james.1@??????????.??.uk> wrote:
>> Thus, like the Internet and the Renaissance, it
>> would indeed, allow and provoke a vast amount of
>> change, new ideas and technology etc. But since
>> not all forms of tech or magic may work in some
>> spheres, or practical problems abound, you'd have a
>> mix, as SJ does.
>
> Heh, time to go into a bit of a rant.
>
> Tech & SJ
>
> One pet peeve of mine that I've developed lately is
> the people saying "the natural progression of SJ is to
> steamships & guns!"  Um, no its not.  In fact, the two
> do not mix well at all, if you understand the
> fundamentals of the SJ universe.
>
> And why won't they work?  Simple, its all about the
> air.  In SJ, a ship has a very limited air supply.
> Steam and guns foul air, very quickly in fact.  Its
> not a matter for ships on the water; wind quickly
> carries the smoke away.  But on a ship with an
> enclosed air envelop?  Guns would be more deadly to
> the user than the target!  A broadside from a galleon,
> movie-style, would instantly foul a ship's air supply.
>  A big ship could easily kill itself through simply
> firing its guns.  And it would create a lovely
> smokescreen that would blind the ship using guns,
> while a ship not using guns would not be so impaired.
>
> Steam is even worse.  For steamships, you have a
> two-fold problems.  First, you need a massive heat
> source.  Usually, these give off smoke.  A smokeless
> heat supply would be needed, and that'd require potent
> magic.  Secondly would be the steam itself.  There's
> no place for it to go!  The steam would make a ship
> hot, humid, moldy and rot the ship very quickly.  Not
> only that, steamships needed a steady source of water;
> on the open water, they just drew in what they needed
> from the water they were sailing across.  In SJ,
> they'd have to carry the water they need.  Using up
> valuable cargo space.  Nevermind room taken up by the
> boiler & coal rooms.  And boilers were notoriously
> dangerous; more than one ship exploded spectacularly
> when a boiler blew.
>
> And really, what would a SJ captain be trying to solve
> by using steam engines?  An expensive helm & helmsman.
>  But a steam engine wouldn't get him anywhere any
> faster; speeds are set at 100 MMPD.  It would use up a
> lot of valuable space, and would require an expensive
> magic item of some sort to keep the air clean.  In the
> end, it wouldn't really buy him anything but more
> headaches than it'd be worth.
>
> So where do I see SJ tech developing?  Look to the
> elves.  Starfly plants are ingenious for making ships.
>  Firstly, you create a ship that is still a living
> plant.  Something that freshens the air, extending the
> air a ship has.  We have a few examples of that
> happening (namely from Sea of Sorrow).  Its slightly
> more flimsy than a thick wood hull (AR 7 for MoW as
> opposed to AR 6 for a hammership), but easier to sail
> (MC C vs. MC D).  And it may be possible to grow
> enormous orchards of thousands of ships at once,
> probably with only minimal pruning and maintenance.
>
> For propulsion, I see Splendid Sails & Onrey Oars as a
> more logical progression.  They're cheap, and don't
> use a spellcaster.  They have their limitations, but
> I'd also keep a minor helm aboard for emergencies like
> landing & combat.  Its a far less complex solution to
> the "problem" of helms.
>
> Weapon evolution would be more along the lines of
> developing more powerful catapults & ballista, such as
> dual ballista & the Vodoni weapons, or for the REALLY
> wealthy, magic weapons.  Especially magic weapons that
> chuck smokebombs at a their foes.  Destroy a foe's
> air, you kill them in one fell swoop.
>
> So, in the context of the SJ universe, I would see the
> "state of the art" ship being something not unlike a
> MoW, perhaps with a different layout, with wing-like
> Splendid Sails and armed to the teeth with Vodoni
> double-ranged ballista.  Certainly not a steamship
> armed with cannons! :D
>
> But that's all just IMHO ;)
>
> Adam
>
>
>        
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