Re: Realmspace - was Single or Multiple Primes- documentation

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Loki" <george.williams.iv@?????.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:12 AM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Single or Multiple Primes- documentation

[snip - Dragonlance stuff removed]

Sorry about the delay Loki. The Krynnspace discussion really took off and it 
took me a while to get back to this post.


> On 12/20/06, David Shepheard <david_shepheard@???????.com> wrote:
> Consolidating DLCS and FRCS into existing Spelljammer/Planescape Cosmology
[snip]
> FRCS:
>> These ones are easy:
>> The Astral Plane - It does exactly what it says on the tin. SORTED!
>> The Material Plane - Formerlly known as the Prime Material Plane. SORTED!
>> The Abyss - It does exactly what it says on the tin. SORTED!
>> Arandor - Tthe elven pantheon live here so we can work out its real name.
>> SORTED!
> That would be the Realm of Arvandor on the Plane of Ysgard

Thanks.

>> Dwarfhome - Moradin and the rest of the dwarven pantheon (apart from 
>> duergar
>> and derro deities) live here so again we can work out its real name. 
>> SORTED!
> Erackinor, on the plane of Mount Celestia

Thanks. In this case Dwarfhome would be an alternate name.

>> Elemental Planes - They do exactly what they say on the tin. SORTED!
>> Green Fields - The halfling pantheon live here so we can work out its 
>> real
>> name. SORTED!
> Green Fields on the plane of Mount Celestia.

Thanks.

>> Heliopolis - The Mulhorandi pantheon (all egyptian gods) and Tiamat live
>> here so we should be able to work out its real name. SORTED!
> Avernus, the first layer of the Outer Plane of Baator (also known as
> the Nine Hells) is the home of Tiamat. Need to look up the egyptian
> realm in PS....

I'll stand by for the egyptian information.

>> House of Knowledge - Deneir, Gond, Milil and Oghma (also a Celtic deity)
>> live here. We can worlk out its real name from Oghma. SORTED!
> I believe that is located in the Outlands (Concordant Opposition in
> 1st Ed.). I am NOT certain of this

The Celtic deities (apart from Mananan Mac Lir) live in Tir Nan Og (aka Tir 
Na Nog):

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=169

Although I suppose that Oghma might have a second home on another plane. It 
might be worth looking for old information on Denir, Gond and Milil...

Planewalker has Denir and Milil living in a "Library of All Knowledge" 
(almost certainly the same thing as the House of Knowledge) that is within 
the Beastlands.

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=1681

Gond is said to live in "Wonderhome", which is in the outlands:

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=1675

So you have 50 percent of the deities being said to live in the Outlands and 
the other 50 percent being said to live in the Beastlands. However, the 
Library of All Knowledge would seem to identify most with the House of 
Knowledge.

I'll see if I can borrow some of the 3e FR books, that I don't yet have from 
my groups DM and scan them for more detailed information about the 3e FR 
outer planes.

Until/unless we get further evidence I'd be tempted to say that Oghma and 
Gond have moved in with Denir and Milil. And that their connections to the 
Realmspace crystal sphere are all from the Beastlands. (However, both Oghma 
and Gond can continue to maintain other residences on different planes as 
Planescape already had rules for deities that move about. So if anyone has 
alternate crystal spheres that require Oghma or Gond to be on the Outlands 
they need not worry.)

>> The Nine Hells (Baator) - It does exactly what it says on the tin. 
>> SORTED!
>> Plane of Shadow - It does exactly what it says on the tin*. SORTED!
>> Demonweb Pits - Lolth and the Drow Pantheon live here so we should be 
>> able
>> to find info about these gods if someone puts the hours in.
> The Demonweb is one of the Layers of the Abyss.

Thanks.

>> Dragon Eyrie - The Dragon Pantheon live here so this is probably 
>> documented
>> in old 1st edition stuff.
> The dragons reside across the upper and lower planes acording to
> alignment, each having their own Realm within that plane. If there is
> one place that they would all gather on neutral ground it would be
> loacted somewhere on the Outlands.

Dragon Eyrie sounds like something new. I agree that a realm in the Outlands 
could be a good place. But think that we should search for further 
information from official sources. The Monster Manual might give us a 3e 
list of dragon gods to look up. I did have the URL of a complete list of FR 
deities, but the list was a RTF file on geocities. They obviously didn't 
like the fact that it wasn't a website as they seem to have pulled it off 
the Internet.

>> Hammergrim - Duergar deities Deep Duerra and Laduguer live here so we 
>> should
>> be able to find it fairly easily.
> Infernal Battlefield of Acheron

Thanks. So this is another new "outer plane" that isn't really new.

>> Nishrek - The Orc Pantheon live here so we should be able to find it with
>> some research.
> Infernal Battlefield of Acheron

Thanks again. It looks like Realmspace has multiple connections to different 
parts of Acheron. I think that is a really interesting way to set up 
cosmology as it means that a planewalker can get to Realmspace from some 
parts of Acheron, but not from other parts. The Planescape fans need to set 
up the portals that connect back to Toril. The Nishrek portal would probably 
be of particular interest to the Scro.

<off topic subject="scro gods">
Although having said that, we need to decide if the Scro still worship the 
normal Orc Pantheon or if they have switched to new god/gods that 
transformed their race.

I think someone on the SJML (probably Mr Druid) pitched a former Scro hero 
as a demi-god. We *could* just plop him in with the rest of the Orc 
Pantheon, although it might be good to look for other new gods that the Scro 
can worship. Hecate (a Greek god) seems to have some connections to Luthic 
of the Orc pantheon. It would be fun to give the Scro a cult of  Hecate 
worshipers (and the Scro navy a source of moon obsessed clerics and 
necromancers).
</off topic>

>> These ones probably require a lot more research, probably by a person who 
>> is
>> an expert on both 2e FRCS and Planescape:
> <SNIP> I need a brief explanation of each of these (sentence or two on
> each with general alignment included please) Then I can map them out
> for y'all

Ugg!. You snipped out the names of the planes you need more info on. Lets 
find them on my old post (tell me if I miss anything). I can't really tell 
you much because the new FRCS doesn't really say much. Each plane only gets 
one or two lines. We might need to search for other 3e FR books that might 
have expanded descriptions.

> The Barens of Doom and Despair - Bane, Behaba, Hoar, Loviatar and Talona 
> live here.

The only additional information in FRCS is that Bane lives on his own. I 
think we are stuck until we can find an alternate 3e source.

> Brightwater - Lliira, Sharess, Sune, Tymora and Waukeen live here.

"Sune maintains a portal to Hanali Celanil's realm in Arvandor. Sharess also 
has a small realm on Heliopolis, the home of her native pantheon. Tymoral 
maintains a portal to Green Fields."

The description of Arvandor says that "Hanali Celanil maintains a portal to 
Sune's realm in Brightwater". I'd say that means that we can't infer the 
location of this place from Sharess. The portals owned by Sune and Tymoral 
also mean that 2e information may show them living in other realms.

Planewalker.com has Waukeen down as having a place called the House of 
Barter in Marketplace Eternal in the Outlands:

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=347

However, I don't think we have enough information to say that this is the 
same place as Brightwater. Waukeen could easily have several realms and the 
Planewalker Encyclopedia doesn't have an entry for her yet.

> Cynosure - This is a place where deities meet. Unless it is part of Sigil 
> I think it is a *new* thing. It sounds like a demi-plane that only the 
> gods of
the Realms can get into. Unless someone wants to role play a god I think we 
can acknowledge its existence and then ignore it.

"Cynosure is a small plane located very close - cosmologically speaking - to 
Toril. Only deities can access it, and only from their own domains."

Gods can only go to and from Cynosure from their own realm. So this plane 
can't be accessed by PCs and doesn't actually connect to Realmspace. It also 
doesn't connect the outer planes as even the gods can't use it as a 
waystation. It doesn't really affect spacefarers of Realmspace (or the 
inhabitants of Toril).

> Dweomerheart - Azuth, Mystra (not to be confused with the former godess 
> with a similar name), Savras and Velsharoon live here.

The only additional information is that Velsharoon is "unpopular but remains 
here to gain protection from Talos". That could suggest that Velsharoon 
actually doesn't belong here and had a different home in 2e.

Planewalker has an entry for Azuth and Savras:

http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=1680
http://www.planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=2151

These seem to suggest that both gods live near each other. However I think 
it might be worth looking for a 3e source.

> The Fugue Plane - Jergal and Kelemvor live here.

There is no further information about this. Although the City of Judgement 
and the Crystal Spire (the realm where Jergal and Kelemvor actually live) 
does get a write up. Later.

> Fury's Heart - Auril, Malar, Talos and Umberlee live here.

Sorry. No more info on this.

> House of Nature - Chantea, Eldath, Gwaeron, Lathander, Mielikki, Nobanion, 
> Shiallia, Silvanus, Ubtao animal lords and deities of nature-oriented 
> creatures (including aarakocras and centaurs) live here.

"The deities of this plane maintain a portal to the Golden Hills."

> House of the Triad - Helm, Ilmater, Siamorph, Torm and Tyr live here.

Again there is no more information on this.

> The Supreme Throne - Only Cyric lives here and as he seems to be a new god 
> we might have to guess this one or make it up.

My description is actually longer than the FRCS description which consists 
only of the word "Cyric".

> Warrior's Rest - Garagos, Red Knight, Tempus, Uthgar and Valkur live here.

Garagos is "hostile to all others" and Uthgar is "distant from all but 
Tempus".

As you can see FRCS lets us down on these "planes" as it says they are new, 
but then gives us practically nothing except names. I can't give you 
alignments or anything unless you want a list of god alignments (in which 
case please don't snip out the names - LOL). We'll have to look for 
alternate 3e sources.

>> One of the interesting FRCS rules is the one that makes all souls go
>> directly to the Fugue Plane and for the faitless (non-belivevers) and 
>> false
>> (those who betrayed their faith) souls to go into The City of Judgement
>> (owned by Kelemvor). I would say that this applies to anyone who dies in
>> Realmspace, however if we can work out where the Fugue Plane is we can 
>> let
>> outsiders escape from it and get back to wherever it is they are supposed 
>> to
>> go when they die. Alernately this could be a good topic for a 
>> Planewalking
>> adventure as a god from another sphere may want to send a party to
>> Realmspace to "rescue" an important dead NPC.
> Perhaps the City of Judgement is not a plane at all. Perhaps is exists
> (cloaked maybe?) on the actual inside surface of the sphere. Souls
> then proceed to the appropriate outer plane once judged. Then again it
> could be in the Outlands.

Interesting idea. It might tie in with the line of dead people walking on 
the inside wall of Realmspace's crystal sphere, but I'm not sure that it 
fits in with the 3e FRCS. The clue is in the name - "The Fugue *Plane*".

Page 257 of FRCS has a map that shows both Cynosure and The Fugue Plane as 
being between the Celestial Planes (which I take as upper planes) and 
Fiendish Planes (which I take as lower planes). The Fugue Plane could be in 
The Outlands, but there would need to be some sort of force surrounding the 
realm that prevents faithless and false from just walking out. (Cynosure 
needs to be a more special place as it seems to be the gods version of 
Sigil.) Given the complexity of the outer planes, it is probably good that 
the dead (of Realmspace) have somewhere to wait while a servant of their god 
turns up to find them.

Maybe The Fugue Plane could be both on the inside of the crystal sphere 
*and* in the outer planes. As planes overlap it is possible that crystal 
spheres are multi-dimensional structures that can extend into inner, 
transitive or outer planes. It looks like it serves a similar role to 
Dragonlance's Gate of Souls. Only unlike the Gate of Souls it looks like it 
is large enough to have a city in the middle of it and a tower in the middle 
of that. A spherical Fugue Plane (identical in size to Realmspace) would 
also explain why people couldn't find their way "out" without a 
representative of their deitity to help them planewalk. However, "SJR2 
Realmspace" says that gigantic writing covers the inside of the crystal 
sphere, so I'm not sure how you would fit in a portal to the Fugue Plane. I 
also wonder how your idea would fit in with the "Wanderers".

I can imagine that we might have an issue with people from other spheres who 
die in Realmspace and "get stuck in The Fugue Plane", because a 
representative doesn't turn up.

I'm not really a fan of all the rules in the "Religion in the Stars" section 
of "SJR2 Realmspace" (as rules like those for clerics of Tyr don't seem to 
fit in with the spirit of the SJCS and rules like those for Bane are just 
too complicated* to convert to 3e), but it does give us a (partial*) list of 
churches in Realmspace. These churches and ones from Al-Qadim, The Horde, 
Maztica and Kara-Tur (like the Path and The Way - which I think is a Shou 
religion) could possibly sell "lucky charms" that outsiders can wear while 
within Realmspace to ensure that their souls are passed on to their own gods 
(by a planewalking servant of their god). (Whether these lucky charms 
actually work (after you die) is another thing.)

* = The reason I say these rules are too complicated is that if we had to do 
the same for *every* deity, we would eventually end up with a very complex 
document.

<off topic subject="Religion in the Stars">
However, the basic idea behind Religion in the Stars is a good one and we 
should cover issues like that for every crystal sphere. We could have less 
complex rules that list certain deities as "granting spells in all spheres", 
"granting spells if Contact Home Power is cast" or "refusing to grant spells 
above 2nd level in other spheres" (i.e. not answering Contact Home Power). 
I'm not a fan of totally blocking spells as it stops groundling clerics 
returning home! My "ultimate sanction" would be to refuse to allow clerics 
to increase cleric levels in foreign crystal spheres (and I'd only want to 
impose that as a last resort - perhaps for gods known to only care about 
specific areas).
</off topic>

> Glad you'reasking questions within my realm of expertise <G>!

"*Realm* of expertise!" Boom-boom!

> Its funny, over at Planewalker I'm the resident Sj guy, here I'm the
> Planescape guy. Amusing...

That makes you the "planejammer" guy in my eyes.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/