Re: Krynnspace

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Trampas Whiteman" <dragonhelm@??????????.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:13 AM

[snip]

>>The New-Krynnspace needs to have stars put on the inside (apart from the
>>constellations of Paladin and Takhisis which now seem to be missing from
>> the sky).
[snip]
> Correct on both counts.  The new Krynnspace does have stars already, but
> the gods are the ones that shaped them in the form of their old
> constellations.  Maybe the old constellations still remain in "old
> Krynnspace", though I'd surmise the gods' presence is what gives them
> form.  So they could very well be a jumble now.

If the new Krynnspace has stars and is on the Material Plane (rather than a
demi-plane) that implies that Takhisis found a crystal sphere with a sun
pretty much like Krynn's original sun and took Krynn there.

If there wasn't a bunch of new gods already present in the crystal sphere
then we can infer that there was no religion already in the crystal sphere
and probably no clerics in the crystal sphere. So the new Krynnspace was
probably a lifeless crystal sphere.

The fantasy universe doesn't need to work like the real universe, but I'd
like to leave stars in the original Krynnspace as they were. Although it
might be nice for the stars of Takhisis and Paladin to slowly start to dim
out. They could stay exactly where they are, but eventually become dark
stars.

>>Reorx would either need to build almost a full set of planets for New-
> Krynn
>>or import the old ones. Dragonhelm has the gods leaving the other planets
>>behind and just taking the three moons. So I'd say that Reorx would need
> to
>>build all new worlds in New-Krynnspace and that it wouldn't take him much
>>longer to build a planet and 3 moons in the old crystal sphere.
>
> Moving Krynn nearly drained Takhisis completely, so moving planets is not
> an easy task.  Now, with all the gods working together (and they may very
> well in this instance) and with there not being a large population to move
> (and fool!), the task may be easier.  I'd say that the gods are more
> likely taking worlds from an existing sphere and modeling them to their
> needs.  I'm not sure Reorx is forging anything new at all.

If it took the gods 40 years to find Krynn, then the new crystal sphere is
probably or very far away from known phlogiston rivers (phologiston rivers
are something that needs documenting on BtM). Alternatively it could be on
the end of a river that passes a lot of hostile or uninhabitable crystal
spheres.

Takhisis could have found a lifeless crystal sphere with a central sun, and
five planets (that are pretty similar in size and orbit) to the ones in the
original Krynnspace. Having all the moons in the right place might be too
much of a coincidence, but Takhisis would probably be able to shunt a couple
of planets in or out a little bit. Shifting a moon or two might not be too
much extra work.

Takhisis would probably have been blocking the Create Portal spell while she
had exclusive access to Krynn. So it is possible, but probably unlikely that
Krynn's new crystal sphere could be discovered. Or if it is a crystal sphere
previously known to be barren, it is possible that someone could go back
there and discover a civilisation that wasn't there before.

However, with the worlds of Krynnspace left behind Krynn's new crystal
sphere would have no DL-spacefarer buffer between Krynn itself and outsider
spacefarers. I think that the gods would probably want to continue to
isolate it (until/unless they could bring some trusted spacefarers from
Krynnspace over to the new crystal sphere or shut Krynnn back home). I can't
see either of those things being done as they would not seem to be things
that would obviously benifit Dragonlance novels or RPG suppliments.

Anyway, if I may, I'd like to leave Krynn and its new crystal sphere for
later and concentrate sorting out things for the old crystal sphere.

>>So where could the New-Krynn be made from? I'd say equal parts of all four
>>elemental planes. Again this could form a world that looks very much like
>>Krynn. But New-Krynn could again have unusual properties.
>
> Or, the remnants of a world once destroyed...

A world once destroyed? Are you talking about the original Zivilyn?

[snip - I've spun a bit off as my post is too big to fit into the SJML ;-) ]

>>There are plenty of special races in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting (and
>>the old Talidas boxed set) and I'd like to have them (and races
> specifically
>>named in Krynnspace) as 90 percent of the new population of Krynnspace.
>
> Be careful here that you don't try to make a Xerox of Krynn.  If that's
> the intent, then you might as well play in a time prior to the Chaos War.

I was talking about natives of Krynn who have journeyed out into Krynnspace,
as well as the races of Krynnspace who have always been there.

Hiddukel is a colony so could contain elves from all over Krynnspace.

Even though Krynn is a groundling world with only two spelljamming ports,
I'd like most of its races to have groups or individuals that went into
wildspace at some point. Takhisis would have turned these ex-pats of Krynn
into "homeless races" who could never get home. I was thinking that some of
these displaced people would be people that were intending to return home at
some point and that they would want somewhere else to live.

Of course if we don't use the Xerox of Krynn (Genesis effect for the
Trekkies) we could always go down the "Death Star" route and replace Krynn
with a planet sized Tinker Gnome space station!
"Theartificialworldbuiltasatemporaryreplacementuntilkrynncanbereturnedtous"
;-)

But we would also need something to act as a focus for Wizards of High
Sorcery. If you want it to be different then we could perhaps build three
giant wizard towers that orbit the space station (the bottom half would have
reverse gravity). These orbital towers could be both the headquarters of the
orders and their schools.

>>Both civilised and nomadic humans have different regions with different
>>languages. I can't see a reason to monkey with that as civilised humans
> give
>>us wizards (Wizards of High Sorcery in this case) and clerics and nomadic
>>humans give us barbarians, druids, rangers and sorcerers (sorcerers are
>>officially renegades in Krynnspace).
>
> With no Wizards of High Sorcery around, there technically are no
> renegades.  Unless the Knights of the Moon fill this role.

Most Ansalon wizards who became spacefarers would probably be Wizards of
High Sorcery (unless the Star Knights/Knights of Krynn was an organisation
that offered sanctuary to renegades). And many of the older Knights of the
Moon would be Wizards of High Sorcerey.

>>Qualinesti are exiles from their destroyed city (Qualinost) so some of
> them
>>may well have travelled into Krynnspace.
>
> I could see one vessel, no more, traveling from New Krynnspace to Old
> Krynnspace with Qualinesti survivors.

I'm not thinking of anyone travelling from New-Krynnspace. I'm thinking of
Qualinesti who became spacefarers before Takhisis stole the world.

>> They are said to be the friendliest
>>of the elven races.
>
> Relatively speaking, of course!  ;-)
>
> Krynn's elves are not the most open to outsiders.  The Qualinesti are more
> accepting, but they're still elves.  The Silvanesti are downright snobs.

Krynn's elves might not be very open to outsiders, but they should have a
relationship with the Elven Imperial Navy. The EIN has to get its crews from
somewhere.

> To give an update on things, Gilthas Pathfinder (not to be confused with
> Gilthanas), son of Tanis Half-Elven and Laurana, is now Speaker of the Sun
> and Stars.  He rules the Qualinesti, Silvanesti, and Kagonesti elves, all
> of whom are in exile without a homeland.  They are currently residing as
> refugees in the deserts of Khur, outside of the capital city of Ak-
> Khurman.
>
> They are currently searching for a new homeland, which they may have
> found.  For more details, check out the Elven Exiles trilogy.

I'll definitely check that out. However, I was talking about spacefaring
elves who were born on Krynn. They wouldn't even have a planet, let alone a
homeland.

>>Does anyone know what "Kago", "Quali" and "Silva" mean. Dargonesti and
>>Dimernesti mean "Deep Elves" and "Shoal Elves"?
>
> Don't remember right off.  Kagonesti are the "wilder elves."  Silvanesti
> is named after Silvanos.

"Silvanos." Doh!

[snip - we agree on gnomes]

>>DCLS has two types of kender. Normal kender and "Afflicted Kender".
>>
>>Normal kender should be all around Krynnspace.
>>
>>As for Afflicted Kender, I'm not so sure. They are supposed to be more
>>uncomfortable with strangers.
>
> Afflicted Kender are paranoid as well.  They were created during the Age
> of Mortals, after the world of Krynn was stolen.  They became afflicted
> when the dragon overlord Malys destroyed Kendermore, her dragonfear
> overpowering the kenders' natural fearlessness.  For the first time,
> kender knew fear.  When nobody would take them in during the Kender Flight
> (and generally kick them when they were down), they became paranoid.

Night Druid already pointed out my mistake. Only standard kender would exist
in Krynnspace (unless we create a similar new subrace for one of
Krynnspace's planets - I can't see a reason to do that).

>>DCLS has two types of ogre. Irda (High Ogres) and normal ogres.
[snip - stuff about irda]
> And extremely dead.  The irda isle was destroyed during the Chaos War.
> Only a rare few have survived.  Maybe the rare irda found his way into
> Krynnspace.

Even if they are rare, I'd still like "homeless" space irda to be a racial
option for PCs in Krynnspace.

[snip]

>>Minotaurs are good sailors so will do well in Krynnspace.
>
> As well as a major faction on Ansalon.  Currently, they rule Ambeon, the
> land formerly known as Silvanesti.

Various Krynn minotaurs should be found in wildspace. "SJR7 Krynnspace"
doesn't give us enough of them. PCs need something Dragonlancey to fight.

>>Hmm. Dragonhelm seems to suggest that the gods of Krynnspace are
> abandoning
>>Krynn.
>
> They left the old Krynnspace since the peoples' there have "grown up."
> They now focus on their other children on the world of Krynn.

As Night Druid said, gods are able to be active in a large number of crystal
spheres. The gods will need to maintain some sort of link to the old
Krynnspace for several reasons:

1) Old souls have gone to the original Dome or Creation, original Hidden
Vale and original Abyss. These souls need access to their gods,
2) Inhabitants of Krynnspace need to be able to go onto the next life, so
need the Gate of Souls and River of Souls maintained and
3) Clerics of the gods (and Wizards of High Sorcery) need to be able to
carry on receiving spells from the gods.

I think that it would be better if the gods became "less active", but still
allowed clerics and wizards to receive spells. If they abandon the sphere
completely, it would merely be invaded by outsider gods who would take over.
I don't think the High God would want that.

>>DCLS has its "new" Mystic class that can cast divine spells and I think we
>>would need to convert most of the clerics of Krynnspace into Mystics. The
>>rest can use the Contact Home Power spell as they are not specifically
> being
>>blocked.
>
> Ah, but mystics tap into the ambient divine energies of Krynn (and likely
> Krynnspace).  They would be powerless outside of the crystal sphere.

Night Druid pointed out that this class came into being so might not be
available in Krynnspace. However, if it was available, I've got no problem
with having a spellcasting class that only works within the crystal sphere.
It could be used by NPCs.

>>Sorcerers and other renegade mages would have an advantage and it would
> be a
>>good time for them to try to consolodate their position.
>
> In this case, sorcerers tap into ambient arcane energies.  DL's sorcerers
> may become powerless outside of Krynnspace.

I don't see any real difference between DL's sorcerers and those in the PHB.
Sorcerer seems to be a universal class that now works everywhere (unless
blocked by the local campaign setting).

>>I think the thing I like most about your idea is the thought of reusing
>>Takhisis (because the New-Krynnspace doesn't want her). And if we are
> going
>>to use her then we should also bring back Paladine!
>
> My advice would be that if you want to use them, set your campaign during
> the modern timeline for Spelljammer, approximately 15 years prior to
> Takhisis stealing the world.  Part of the charm of the modern era is that
> Paladine and Takhisis are gone, so now the other gods and mortals must
> move on without them.

I was considering this as an option if none of the other gods were
available. But I think I'd prefer to keep access to the rest of the DL gods
and not have Paladine or Takhisis.

>>This would give us a Krynnspace with *one* evil god and *one* good god and
>>no "gods of balance" to keep them apart!
>>
>>Sounds like a big fight waiting to happen! ;-)
>
> Maybe, but the neutrality of Dragonlance is essential.  Krynnspace, both
> old and new, should have the themes of good, evil, and balance.

Fair enough. You know DL much better than me. I'll just keep bouncing ideas
about until we one everyone thinks is cool.

>>I'm not so sure about using scro as I don't see them having a major
> presence
>>in Tauruspace. I suppose you could put them in Steelspace, but I don't
> see a
>>reason for Takhisis to be dealing with Unhumans. You would need to invent
>>some sort of link.
>
> Scro have this eerie feeling that they don't belong in Krynnspace.  Nobody
> can fully explain this phenomenon, other than to say that the gods have
> something against them.  (It's that no orc thing in DL, ya know.  ;-) ).

The gods have to stay to keep up that "feeling". By the way, does that also
apply to halflings? Halflings are not natural to Krynnspace either.

>>Paladin could get his own army by using the same trick that was used to
>>create the draconians. But he could steal the eggs of evil dragons and
>>create a "good draconian" army to back up The Star Knights. (If someone
>>hasn't already knocked these up somewhere on Dragonlance Nexus then we can
>>have fun working out what sort of new "death throes" to give them.)
>
> Check out the noble draconians in the Bestiary of Krynn.  :-)

Nice book. It is a shame that WotC don't plug the DL books published by
Sovereign Press. What is the difference between the normal and revised
editions? Dragonlance Nexus puts them both down as core rulebooks which
suggests people need both, but the descriptions seem to suggest the revised
version is new edition of the other version. I'm not going to buy a copy of
this until I can work out what "revised" means (and why Dragonlance Nexus
wants me to buy both).

>>I'd also like to see more dragons in the Dragonlance crystal sphere.
>
> Agreed.

We have quite a few dragons on the various planets already. I think I'd like
to see some that get more involved in spelljamming.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://www32.brinkster.com/virtualeclipse/