Re: 3e SJ combat and needed stats

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Fri 12 May, Alexander James wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Tue 09 May, Alexander James wrote:
> >> I expect we can all agree it would help our cause if we used
> >> the official WotC rules for our combat system: either
> >> Arms&Equipment vehicles, Stormwrack narrative combat, or d20
> >> Future spaceship combat rules.
[snip]

> >> So I'll try to use overall 'fastplay' hitpoints for ships.  The
> >> rest of this info applies regardless.
> >
> > What are these, please?
>
> I calculated them at the end of message

Thanks, I'll re-read your message.


> >> For those who would prefer to keep hull points, see also
> >> Mongoose publishing's Seas of Blood that gives ships structure
> >> dice based on size and type.
> >
> > Are you suggesting this as inspiration, or are you suggesting we
> > contact Mongoose Publishing with an eye to using their rules?
>
> mostly for inspiration, the use of HullPoints is the best point of the
> system I could find.
[snip]

OK.


> > This looks interesting!
> >
> > Could you please give us a worked example, that would make it
> > easier to understand exactly how this should work, please?
>
> due to length wil be seperate post.
[snip]

OK.


> >> new skill: SJPilot (trained only, Wis, see below) -
> >>     used to perform special manouevers while at the Helm
> >>     normal combat is a DC 10 standard action to maintain
> >>     control <untrained may do so as a full-round
> >>     action><trained can always take ten>
> >>     DC 15 move action to add a +2 dodge bonus to your ship's AC
> >>     (rises by +1 if you also have 5 ranks in
> >>     K(archetecture&engineering))
> >>   special: if you are a spellcaster with 5 ranks in
> >>     Concentration and are using a spell-draining (standard)
> >>     Helm, use your casting stat instead of Wis.
> >>     some specific Helms will use Dex as their prime stat
> >>     (theese are mostly non-magical)
> >>     synergy bonus from and to Prof(Sailor), and from Concentration
> >
> > This sounds good, but I'd substitute the 'Helm Pilot' skill that
> > I proposed.
> >
> > I used Cha as the stat for non-spelljamming helms used by
> > non-spellcasters as it is still a mental stat, and you are using
> > your mind to make the helm work, not your body and hence your
> > Dex.  Also, if you look at those sort of helms, they are mostly a
> > matter of controlling energy from others, sometimes a group, and
> > Cha seemed suitable for that.
>
> The ones I was thinking of for Dex were the console and/or ships's wheel 
> helmsI thought Wisdom was appropriate for for the mystic helms mostly 
> becauseit translates to dex in my Astral body system (Int-str, Cha-con 
> also), in that it is that stat of knowing what to do, even though Cha is the 
> stat of making the energy do it for you.

Neither the Console or Ship's Wheel Helms are in CoAS, and I _think_
you could just say that the way you operate them mirrors the way you
are making the energies flow - but that is probably not the case.

I don't think we plan to include an Astral body system in the SJ
conversion, but I've seen all sorts of cuts on mental stats with
their physical equivalent in different systems, which mostly agree
with you on this.

The problem with spelljamming is that it depends on your magical
power, and your skill with manipulating that magical power.  That
means that your spellcasting pilots are using different stats
depending on the sort of spellcaster they are.  

When you come to helms driven by non-spellcasters is it worth
considering what is the externally visible mental stat, the one
non-spellcasters reach out with to control (others in) their
surroundings?  The closest thing they have to magical power.  That
was part of my logic for suggesting Cha.

Also, Cha is the mental stat non-spellcasters often consider most
important, so it may be the one you can expect to be higher.  This
of course doesn't apply in all cases, particularly in 3rdEd, where
Int and Wis are more functional than 2ndEd.

It can be argued and sliced so many different ways...


> >> Ship weapons: double reload time, keep crew requirement
> >
> > Why do you increase this over the Seige Weapon rules given in the
> > DMG?
>
> found it was a better match with the updated rules in Stromwrack,
> which claims precedance over the DMG rules in all naval situations
> (so by extension, the DMG siege rules only work on solid ground)

OK.  Would you need Stormwrack to run 3rdEd SJ, then?


> >> range increment of 'Range' x 30ft [the table presented is good
> >>     for balance, but not very sensible physics - heavy weapons
> >>     are only a tiny bit slower than light, there is that much
> >>     more force involved]
> >>     or balistae 150ft, catapults 100ft, bombards 50ft,
> >>     Jettisons 50ft, fire projector 100ft line the projectile
> >>     then moves 5 increments each round forever (except jettison
> >>     shot disperses after 10 increments)
> >>         once the projectile succeds on a touch attack against
> >>         an air envelope (one size larger than the ship), it stops.
> >
> > That sounds reasonable, but I'd prefer a bigger Range Increment
> > for wildspace use.  Also, where it is a choice between physics
> > and keeping the spelljamming style, I'd recommend we stick with
> > the style, and game balance.
> 
> that's why I listed the strait conversion first, and given that the speed
> conversion listed in the CoAS of 17mph per SR, and the size of hexes, 
> translates into 150ft per 3e 6sec round, using 1hex(square)=1SR=150ft makes 
> the rangex30ft actually only 5 increments to the listed maximum range. 
> (thus the moving 5 increments per round corresponds to the WCC rule)

17mph per 1 SR, 150ft per (6sec) round, hence 150ft hexes or squars
was what I was working to.

Range Increment in the PHB gives five increments for thrown weapons,
ten increments for projectile weapons.

Heavy Catapult, for example, in the DMG under Seige Weapons has a
Range Increment on 200ft, and hence a Maximum Range of 2000ft.

This doesn't take into account the lack of air resistance in
wildspace.

AD&D 1stEd DMG gives a Trebuchet (SJ equivalent Heavy Catapult) 48"
(1440ft), as compared to SJ 1,500yds (4500ft).

That is about x3 range for being in wildspace rather than on the
ground.  Heavier weapons have worse maximum range in wildspace:

Weapon           AD&D  Dam      SJ  Dam    3rdEd  Dam
Light Ballista    960  2d6    9000  2d6
Medium Ballista               6000  3d6     1200  3d6
Heavy Ballista                3000  3d10
Light Catapult    960  2d10   7500  2d10    1500  3d6
Medium Catapult  1080  2d12   6000  3d10
Heavy Catapult   1440  3d10   4500  3d10    2000  5d6

Conversely, on the ground (in a gravity well) heavier weapons have
better maximum range.

I think we would be advised to stick with this, as altering it could
alter the balance of effectiveness of weapons in SJ combat.


> >> Attack roll = crew leader's Bab+Int (balistae and fire
> >>     projectors use Bab+dex)    {balistae are mounted in such a
> >>     way that the weapon can be aimed by one man's strength,
> >>     most weapons require guesswork on pullies and wedges} -
> >>     since all weapons are actually direct fire they only need
> >>     to match the AC of the target
> >>     or just use Bab+dex for all attack rolls
> >
> > Seige weapons in the DMG specifically disallow adding the BAB.
>
> The use of BaB is taken from Stromwrack

I think that I'm going to have to look at that...

I just looked, and there's not much prospect of me getting a copy
any time soon.


> > Even if you could add it, wouldn't that mean you need some sort
> > of weapon proficiency, or be at -4?  I don't think that having
> > each ship weapon as an Exotic Weapon needing a Feat is a good
> > idea, but that is the obvious thing - I'd prefer to avoid needing
> > a Feat to run ship's weapons effectively, at all.
>
> Personally I think they should be martial weapons in any sphere with
> the tech level to make them.  And d20 Future did list a single feat
> granting proficiency in all ship-board weapons.

I think one point is that they are not man-portable weapons, and are
specifically disallowed from quite a few 'weapon' things.

I don't think that I'd really trust d20 Future for this, as their
idea of ship weapons is likely to be very different.

I think I need to read the SJ combat rules, again...



> > The DMG under Seige Weapons suggests that Profession (seige
> > engineer) gives the right skills.
> >
> > Is this changed in some WotC rules that I haven't read?
> 
> Stormwrack puts prof(siege) as primary in loading the weapons properly, 
> rather than firing them.

A change from the DMG...


> >> Stray projectiles make attack rolls using only magic bonuses on
> >> the ammunition itself to hit any ship whose space they enter,
> >> the helmsman adds half his ranks in SJPilot as dodge bonus
> >> versus theese stray due to advance warning.
> > [snip]
> >
> > This all looks interesting, but I'm afraid that I cannot read
> > your tables, below.
> [snip]
> > Sorry, I normally try and avoid commenting on posting style!
> 
> My apologies, since I didn't even get my first computer until fall 2001, 
> long after the tyranny of MS crap, I had been wondring why many posts were 
> stuck in such short wraped lines.
> 
> so. the table people couldn't read:
>                                                    threat
> weapon          dmg  ROF crew ship person
> Light Ballista   3d8   1/4      1     -      19-20
> Med Ballista   4d8   1/6      2    20     19-20
> Hvy Ballista     6d8   1/8     4  19-20  19-20
> Lgt Catapult    3d6   1/4     1     20       x3
> Med Catapult  4d6   1/5     3  19-20    x3
> Hvy Catapult   6d6   1/6     5   18-20   x3
> Bombard         3d10  1/8    3     20      x3
> Fire Projector  6d6fi  1/8    3     fire      -
> Lgt DualBallista 4d6   1/6    2     20    19-20
> Med DualBallista 6d6  1/8   3  19-20  19-20
> Hvy DualBallista 8d6  1/10  5   18-20  19-20
> Accelerator       1d10* 1/1  1    19-20  19-20
> Dmg applies both to ships (before resistances and hardness) and to creatures
> ROF: rate of fire in 3e 6 second rounds
> threat ship: the threat range of the weapon when used against a ship (note 
> that ships always use a critical hit table)
> threat person: the threat or critical multiplier of the weapon when used 
> against a creature
> notes;
> *fire projector deals 6d6 fire in first round, and automatically starts a 
> 3-die Fire
> *Accelerator shot is at such speed it ignores the first 10 points of 
> hardness

Thanks!

I hacked that to:

                                        Threat
Weapon             Dmg    ROF  Crew   Ship  Person
Light Ballista     3d8    1/4    1       -   19-20
Medium Ballista    4d8    1/6    2      20   19-20
Heavy Ballista     6d8    1/8    4   19-20   19-20

Light Catapult     3d6    1/4    1      20      x3
Medium Catapult    4d6    1/5    3   19-20      x3
Heavy Catapult     6d6    1/6    5   18-20      x3

Bombard            3d10   1/8    3      20      x3
Fire Projector     6d6fi  1/8    3    fire     -

Lgt Dual Ballista  4d6    1/6    2      20   19-20
Med Dual Ballista  6d6    1/8    3   19-20   19-20
Hvy Dual Ballista  8d6    1/10   5   18-20   19-20

Accelerator        1d10*  1/1    1   19-20   19-20

Dmg applies both to ships (before resistances and hardness) and to
creatures

ROF: rate of fire in 3e 6 second rounds

Threat Ship: the threat range of the weapon when used against a ship
(note that ships always use a critical hit table)

Threat Person: the threat or critical multiplier of the weapon when
used against a creature

Notes:
*Fire Projector deals 6d6 fire in first round, and automatically
starts a 3-die Fire

*Accelerator shot is at such speed it ignores the first 10 points of
hardness

-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/