Re: 3e SJ combat and needed stats

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Tue 09 May, Alexander James wrote:
>> I expect we can all agree it would help our cause if we used
>> the official WotC rules for our combat system: either
>> Arms&Equipment vehicles, Stormwrack narrative combat, or d20
>> Future spaceship combat rules.
>
> This would be nice, but it depended on both whether we would be
> allowed to publish something which quoted large chunks of these
> rules, and how much we would have to change things like the sJ
> ship stats.
>
>
>> 1) a narrative system is good for groups that prefer their
>> characters to matter - boarding actions are the interesting
>> part.
>
> I would certainly think it a good idea to include some sort of
> narrative system, even if only as an add-on to using as much of
> the existing SJ combat rules as possible.
>
>
>> 2) the d20 future rules give all ships perfect
>> manueverability, a distinct break from SJ feel.
>
> It sounds as though it would be best to avoid these, then.
>
>
>> 3) the Arms &Equipment vehicle rules use sectional hitpoints
>> that get burdensome quickly.
>
> I've seen lots of systems that get themselves in a real mess with
> sectional hit point schemes - I think there is a lot to say for
> the existing SJ hull point system.  One of its virtues is that
> even though abstract it seems to give a good 'feel' to combat,
> the ship slowly coming to pieces around you, and the numbers it
> uses are in the easily human-managable range of one or two
> digits.
>
>
>> So I'll try to use overall 'fastplay' hitpoints for ships.  The
>> rest of this info applies regardless.
>
> What are these, please?
I calculated them at the end of message

>
>> For those who would prefer to keep hull points, see also
>> Mongoose publishing's Seas of Blood that gives ships structure
>> dice based on size and type.
>
> Are you suggesting this as inspiration, or are you suggesting we
> contact Mongoose Publishing with an eye to using their rules?
mostly for inspiration, the use of HullPoints is the best point of the
system I could find.

>
>
>> For those who wish to capture vessels, I recommend the narative
>> combat system be used.
>>
>>
>> To fit with 3e combat systems: (many references to
>> Stormwrack/Arms&Equipment Guide for similarities)
>>
>> Speed: 1SR = 150ft move speed
>> MC:  new manueverability
>> Shiphandling check modifier (for narrative system, and
>> ramming/crashing checks)
>
> Sorry, I've re-formatted your table here, as it exceeded 80
> characters, and I couldn't get the layout to look right, even
> though I tried several different ways.
>
>                    Check     Turn   Turn   Speed Change
> MC  Name            Modifier  45deg  60deg  Space  Atmos
> A   aerial poor        +6       5     10     3SR   100ft*
> B   aerial clumsy      +4      10     25     3SR    50ft*
> C   nautical good      +2      30     40     2SR    20ft
> D   nautical average   +0      60     75     2SR    10ft
> E   nautical poor      -2     120    150     1SR     5ft
> F   nautical clumsy*   -4     240    300     1SR     5ft
>
>> notes: turn distance is the amount that must be moved between
>> turns of 45 or 60 degrees (squares and hexes), ships still get
>> a free turn at the end of the round.  Turning does not cost
>> speed (as 3e), but it is noteworthy that the cost of turning in
>> a 150' hex works out very close to the distance that must be
>> travelled while making that turn when measured in much smaller
>> units.
>> 'nautical clumsy' does not appear in the books, but is
>> extrapolated from the others speed change is not listed for
>> aerial manueverabilities, and is thus extrapolated since ships
>> can't brake as fast as anything with wings.
>
> This looks interesting!
>
> Could you please give us a worked example, that would make it
> easier to understand exactly how this should work, please?
due to length wil be seperate post.

>
>
>> Ramming and Crashing:
>> a ram is now resolved by opposed SJPilot checks (plus
>> shiphandling modifier), the attacker must at least match the
>> defender's check to succesfully ram, head-on rams may still be
>> responded to in kind.
>>
>> Crashes can be avioded by the helmsman making a SJPilot check
>> (plus shiphandling) DC 15 Huge, 20 Gargantuan, 25 Collosal,
>> 30 Collosal+, etc.
>>
>> The damage is dependant on the speed and size of the active
>> vessel, that being the ramming ship or the smaller in a crash
>>
>> large 1d6, huge 2d6, gargantuan 3d6, collosal 4d6, collosal+
>> 6d6 per SR (or 10ft on water)
>>
>> a ramming ship takes only a quarter this damage (SJ rams are
>> more integrated into the frame than nautical rams, which take
>> half)
>>
>> both vessels suffer Ship Shaken, and other crits as appropriate
>>
>> new skill: SJPilot (trained only, Wis, see below) -
>>     used to perform special manouevers while at the Helm
>>     normal combat is a DC 10 standard action to maintain
>>     control <untrained may do so as a full-round
>>     action><trained can always take ten>
>>     DC 15 move action to add a +2 dodge bonus to your ship's AC
>>     (rises by +1 if you also have 5 ranks in
>>     K(archetecture&engineering))
>>   special: if you are a spellcaster with 5 ranks in
>>     Concentration and are using a spell-draining (standard)
>>     Helm, use your casting stat instead of Wis.
>>     some specific Helms will use Dex as their prime stat
>>     (theese are mostly non-magical)
>>     synergy bonus from and to Prof(Sailor), and from Concentration
>
> This sounds good, but I'd substitute the 'Helm Pilot' skill that
> I proposed.
>
> I used Cha as the stat for non-spelljamming helms used by
> non-spellcasters as it is still a mental stat, and you are using
> your mind to make the helm work, not your body and hence your
> Dex.  Also, if you look at those sort of helms, they are mostly a
> matter of controlling energy from others, sometimes a group, and
> Cha seemed suitable for that.
The ones I was thinking of for Dex were the console and/or ships's wheel 
helmsI thought Wisdom was appropriate for for the mystic helms mostly 
becauseit translates to dex in my Astral body system (Int-str, Cha-con 
also), in that it is that stat of knowing what to do, even though Cha is the 
stat of making the energy do it for you.

>
>
>> Ship weapons: double reload time, keep crew requirement
>
> Why do you increase this over the Seige Weapon rules given in the
> DMG?
found it was a better match with the updated rules in Stromwrack,
which claims precedance over the DMG rules in all naval situations
(so by extension, the DMG siege rules only work on solid ground)

>
>> range increment of 'Range' x 30ft [the table presented is good
>>     for balance, but not very sensible physics - heavy weapons
>>     are only a tiny bit slower than light, there is that much
>>     more force involved]
>>     or balistae 150ft, catapults 100ft, bombards 50ft,
>>     Jettisons 50ft, fire projector 100ft line the projectile
>>     then moves 5 increments each round forever (except jettison
>>     shot disperses after 10 increments)
>>         once the projectile succeds on a touch attack against
>>         an air envelope (one size larger than the ship), it stops.
>
> That sounds reasonable, but I'd prefer a bigger Range Increment
> for wildspace use.  Also, where it is a choice between physics
> and keeping the spelljamming style, I'd recommend we stick with
> the style, and game balance.
that's why I listed the strait conversion first, and given that the speed
conversion listed in the CoAS of 17mph per SR, and the size of hexes, 
translates into 150ft per 3e 6sec round, using 1hex(square)=1SR=150ft makes 
the rangex30ft actually only 5 increments to the listed maximum range. 
(thus the moving 5 increments per round corresponds to the WCC rule)

>
>
>> Attack roll = crew leader's Bab+Int (balistae and fire
>>     projectors use Bab+dex)    {balistae are mounted in such a
>>     way that the weapon can be aimed by one man's strength,
>>     most weapons require guesswork on pullies and wedges} -
>>     since all weapons are actually direct fire they only need
>>     to match the AC of the target
>>     or just use Bab+dex for all attack rolls
>
> Seige weapons in the DMG specifically disallow adding the BAB.
The use of BaB is taken from Stromwrack

>
> Even if you could add it, wouldn't that mean you need some sort
> of weapon proficiency, or be at -4?  I don't think that having
> each ship weapon as an Exotic Weapon needing a Feat is a good
> idea, but that is the obvious thing - I'd prefer to avoid needing
> a Feat to run ship's weapons effectively, at all.
Personally I think they should be martial weapons in any sphere with
the tech level to make them.  And d20 Future did list a single feat
granting proficiency in all ship-board weapons.

>
> The DMG under Seige Weapons suggests that Profession (seige
> engineer) gives the right skills.
>
> Is this changed in some WotC rules that I haven't read?
Stormwrack puts prof(siege) as primary in loading the weapons properly, 
rather than firing them.

>
>
>> Stray projectiles make attack rolls using only magic bonuses on
>> the ammunition itself to hit any ship whose space they enter,
>> the helmsman adds half his ranks in SJPilot as dodge bonus
>> versus theese stray due to advance warning.
> [snip]
>
> This all looks interesting, but I'm afraid that I cannot read
> your tables, below.
[snip]
> Sorry, I normally try and avoid commenting on posting style!
> -- 
My apologies, since I didn't even get my first computer until fall 2001, 
long after the tyranny of MS crap, I had been wondring why many posts were 
stuck in such short wraped lines.

so. the table people couldn't read:
                                                   threat
weapon          dmg  ROF crew ship person
Light Ballista   3d8   1/4      1     -      19-20
Med Ballista   4d8   1/6      2    20     19-20
Hvy Ballista     6d8   1/8     4  19-20  19-20
Lgt Catapult    3d6   1/4     1     20       x3
Med Catapult  4d6   1/5     3  19-20    x3
Hvy Catapult   6d6   1/6     5   18-20   x3
Bombard         3d10  1/8    3     20      x3
Fire Projector  6d6fi  1/8    3     fire      -
Lgt DualBallista 4d6   1/6    2     20    19-20
Med DualBallista 6d6  1/8   3  19-20  19-20
Hvy DualBallista 8d6  1/10  5   18-20  19-20
Accelerator       1d10* 1/1  1    19-20  19-20
Dmg applies both to ships (before resistances and hardness) and to creatures
ROF: rate of fire in 3e 6 second rounds
threat ship: the threat range of the weapon when used against a ship (note 
that ships always use a critical hit table)
threat person: the threat or critical multiplier of the weapon when used 
against a creature
notes;
*fire projector deals 6d6 fire in first round, and automatically starts a 
3-die Fire
*Accelerator shot is at such speed it ignores the first 10 points of 
hardness