Re: 3rdEd 'Helmsman' character class

I'm sorry, but IMHO a helmsman MUST have spellcasting capability, even
if it is only a few 0 lvl spells granted by a feat (such as Arcane
Prodigy). Of course in that instance the helmsman would be VERY slow
and limited.

I concur with david's opinion on this matter. I also would like to
point out that while the ideas here do have merit as alternate systems
they do go outside of our purview. We can adapt, not reinvent. We all
fell in love with the original system, and all of us who are DMs have
modified it for our own games. What we are trying to do now is do a
full and final adaptation of the old rules to bring them up to date
with 3.5

I think these alternate ideas should be either shelved (to work on
later) or split off into new threads. I do not, and don't want anyone
to think, endore abandoning any of these lines of reasoning. There is
always someone out there who will find it useful.
Loki

On 4/3/06, Dreamer <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk> wrote:
> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Mon 03 Apr, David Shepheard wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> > > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Sat 01 Apr, Jeymian Winterwolf wrote:
> > >> {{*this will indicate the changes I suggest to be made to this Prestige
> > >> Class*}}
> > <snip>
> > >> HELMSMAN Prestige Class
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > Thanks for the feedback...
> > >
> > > But...
> > >
> > > This is the reason that I had major doubts whether a 3rdEd
> > > Prestige Class is suitable for "Helmsman".
>
> > >
> > > All the Prestige Classes that I've seen start you in about 5th
> > > level, or higher.
> > >
> > > Where do I get a 1st level, wet-behind-the-ears, Helmsman, who
> > > can fly one ship as long as nothing in particular goes wrong, can
> > > maneuver safely at low speeds as long as takes about twice as
> > > long as an experience helmsman, and counts as a 1st level spell
> > > caster, giving SR1 with a standard Helm?
> > >
> > > I feel this sort of person should exist...
> >
> > He does exist. He is called a *groundling* spellcaster who doesn't have the
> > Spacefarer feat.
>
> Yes, but 'Helmsman' was a reference to a non-standard 2ndEd
> character class, which was what started this thread. They are not
> strictly spellcasters.
>
>
> > ;-)
> >
> > The 2e Helmsman was *never* described as someone who couldn't cast spells.
> > I'm sorry, but you have misrepresented it as something it never was. I see a
> > helmsman as a spellcaster who neglects some of his spell lessons in order to
> > practice his spelljamming skills.
>
> Nope. I'm afraid that you've lost the head of this thread. I
> include the text below.
>
>
> > 3e PrCs are intended to be *secondary* character classes, so a Helmsman PrC
> > would inevitably be a spellcaster that had a few levels (I'd even say that a
> > 5th level fighter/1st level cleric should have a chance to be a Helmsman - I
> > just want them to have *some* spellcasting ability to qualify).
>
> This is one reason I had such doubts about a prestige class
> suiting this purpose...
>
>
> > David Shepheard
>
>
> Original thread head:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> I notice various people are talking about extended 3rdEd
> character classes that might have a SJ application.
>
> I was wondering how I might convert the 2ndEd 'Helmsman' class?
>
> 2ndEd version:
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Helmsman - ROM, 18/Sep/00
>
> Helmsman is a magic-user specialisation, intended just to be able
> to operate a Spell Jamming Helm. Though they are treated in all
> ways as a magic-user of their level for the purpose of operating
> a helm, and have the same character class requirements as a
> magic-user (and 6+ STR, 7+ DEX), the only thing that they can do
> with their magical powers is to operate a helm. In other words,
> they cannot cast spells, or enchant magical items. They can,
> however, use any magical item that can be used by a magic-user,
> including scrolls (they will need some means to Read Magic), and
> may be allowed to work on enchanting helms. DMs might allow them
> to learn and cast the various Helm spells at high level (and
> possibly Permanence, but only on Helms), but spell casting should
> make them incapable of operating a helm for a week after.
>
> A helmsman gains the equivalent non-weapon proficiencies (NWP)
> and saving throws as a magic-user, but has the weapon
> proficiencies, hit dice and combat skills of a thief, though
> armour is still restricted as a magic-user (however, only while
> operating a helm). They use the thief table for experience points
> required for levels, as they have such a specialised way of using
> their magic.
>
> Except for use as NPC hirelings, this class is probably most of
> use if the character is a split class, for example a
> Fighter/Helmsman, or a Thief/Helmsman, answering questions like:
> "How could he have stolen that Spell Jammer? He is a thief, not a
> magic-user!", or: "How does he spell jam without help from a
> spell caster?".
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
> This 2ndEd class depends on the Thief experience table making
> them a far cheaper class than the obviously far more useful
> Wizards.
>
> It also relies on the character who becomes this class having
> 'magical talent', which the DnD system seems to consider is
> something every character has if their player wants it, even if
> not all members of the population do so.
>
>
> Does this class even make sense as an idea under 3rdEd, and if so
> how would people go about making it work?
>
> As I understand it a prestige class probably wouldn't be
> appropriate (it's not very prestigious! [grin] ).
>
> Maybe you'd turn it into a (non-wizard/sorcerer/priest) Feat?
>
> Apprentice Helmsman allows you to operate a Helm as an arcane
> spell caster of half your level (round down, minimum 1st;
> prerequisite INT 10), Journeyman Helmsman as one of two-thirds
> your level (round to nearest, prerequisite Apprentice Helmsman),
> and Master Helmsman as one of your level (prerequisite Journeyman
> Helmsman)?
>
> (If someone takes this Feat, and has either arcane or divine
> magic from some other source, such as high level Rangers, then
> the Helm drains this for the day as well.)
>
>
> It strikes me that it would be a very useful NPC class (or Feat,
> or whatever), in particular if there was something like a Guild
> of Helmsmen.
>
> --
> Dreamer
> dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
> http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/
>
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--
George "Loki" Williams, writing and other abberrations
PEACH- Please Examine and Critique Honestly

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