Re: Locate Portal spell - Call for votes + spell style

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Sat 01 Apr, David Shepheard wrote:
<snip>
>> *Call for feedback*
>>
>> Does anyone think that any other classes should get access to this? 
>> Druids,
>> Bards, Rangers and Paladins were ignored in 2e and may have a case to use
>> some SJ spells. If you think they should get some SJ spells then speak up
>> now! My votes:
>> * Bards - I say yes - bards are known for travelling: they would try to 
>> find
>> portals so they could take news and songs to new spheres.
>> * Druids - I say yes -  druids have divination skills and power over
>> nature - the crystal sphere is part of nature and the spell is a 
>> divination.
>> * Paladins - I say no - paladin spells are mostly protection from evil.
>> * Rangers - I say no - ranger spells seem more specifically plant/animal
>> than nature based.
>
> It depends on what you think of 'Wildspace Rangers'; you could
> argue that this spell fits with the idea of tracking in space,
> etc. You need to think about what the character class does, in
> particular in a SJ setting, in addition to their existing spell
> lists.

If you are saying yes to rangers getting it then the votes so far are:

Bards - yes 2 - no 0,
Druids - yes 1 - no 1,
Paladins - yes 0 - no 2,
Rangers - yes 1 - no 2,

>> > Components:  V, S, F
>> > Casting Time: 1 turn
>>
>> *Error in casting time format - turns no longer exist*
>
> My mistake. I should have said '1 minute'.
>>
>> <Conversion Manual summary - note this applies to casting time and not
>> duration>
>> Turns in Casting Time are converted into minutes - 1 turn = 10 minutes.
>> </Conversion Manual summary>
>>
>> Should read: "Casting Time: 10 minutes"
>
> I realise that to convert the spell, time to time, 1 DnD turn
> becomes 10 3rdEd minutes, but if you want the spell to take the
> same number of combat actions, which I think is arguably the
> intention, then the Casting Time should be 1 minute.
>
> This is a problem which will come up again and again - if we
> convert on just the basis of the length of time that DnD turns
> last we will get spells that no one will contemplate casting in a
> combat sitation.
>
> I'd prefer the time frame for spells to match the original, but
> if people think the spell should become something more like a ten
> minute ritual?

With a 1 turn casting time - the 2e version was already a 10 minute ritual.

However, as the spell is a non-combat spell with only one use, I can't see 
cutting the casting time causing damage to game balance. I'd be willing to 
go with this if other people think it is a good idea - I'm not sure I'd 
agree if you wanted to make a universal decision for *all* conversions

I think the 3e time changes were about making combat resolution faster as 
opposed to making everything faster. Effectively, WotC are saying to us, 
spells like "Locate Portal" do not get cast in the middle of a combat 
situation.

>> > Range: 300'
>>
>> *Error in range conversion - ranges for most spells should match standard
>> SRD ranges*
>>
>> <Conversion Manual summary>
>> A range between 31-100 yards becomes "Medium"
>> A range above 101 yards becomes "Long"
>> </Conversion Manual summary>
>>
>> <SRD summary>
>> Medium range is 100 feet + 10 feet/caster level
>> Long range is 400 feet + 40 feet/caster level
>>
>> See The Hypertext d20 SRD for more information on spell ranges:
>> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#range
>> </SRD summary>
>>
>> Technically, Richard Gant converted the range correctly (although for 
>> some
>> reason put personal - and then put the real range in the spell 
>> description).
>> However, a "correct" version cuts down the spell range, making people fly
>> closer to the crystal sphere than in 2e.
>>
>> Technically correct (but not recommended): "Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10
>> ft./level)"
>>
>> Mark Doolan made the range one range category too large. However,
>> considering that the 2e range was maxed out for a medium range spell, I
>> would go with Mark Doolan's very slight exageration (he has only 
>> *cheated*
>> by adding one yard to the 2e conversion process).
>>
>> Recommended (as per MD): "Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft. /level)"

You want to cut the casting time - I want to boost the range. This is a one 
shot spell that only works next to a sphere. As I said before, this spell 
won't overbalance a game.

> I didn't check the SRD, I used the notes in my 3.0 PHB. Sorry.
> It suggested that a Range of 300' would fall under "Range
> Expressed in Feet", and I used 300' to make the minimum change to
> the 2ndEd spec. If you want to increase the Range, you can,
> though the minimum of 512' seems quite a jump.

Please check the conversion licence:
http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/ESDpolicy.rtf

This says "Conversions must be performed using the System Reference Document 
(SRD), created for OGL users, for purposes of establishing 3E mechanics in 
the respective materials.  You are only granted permission to convert the 
ESD; you may not perform a re-design based upon personal standards and 
opinions."

Converting things using non-open source books (like the PHB) may prevent 
people publishing it online. Having said that people *might* be allowed to 
use a similar writhing style to thte PHB.

>> > Target: Crystal sphere
>> > Duration: 1 round
>> > Saving Throw: None
>> > Spell Resistance: No
>> >
>> > The caster of a Locate Portal spell can find the nearest portal
>> > through a crystal shell either into or out of the Flow.  The
>> > spell indicates direction and distance (either in miles if it is
>> > close, or in days of travel time at Spelljamming speed).
>>
>> *NIt-pick - doesn't match the style of SRD spells*
>
> I followed the principle of minimum change to the text. Do we
> _want_ to re-write all the spell specs to get the style right?
>
> Doesn't that produce too much chance of changing the meaning?

Conversions are aimed at players of 3rd Edition D&D and should really follow 
similar standards to 3e spells.

>> Have a look at Locate Creature and Locate Object
>> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateCreature.htm
>> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/locateObject.htm
>>
>> The description should talk about "you" rather than "the caster". From
>> looking at other spells, I've realised we don't need to mention distance
>> units in the spell description. I've tried to make this into Plain 
>> English.
>>
>> Recommended: "You sense the direction, distance and travel time to the
>> nearest portal through the crystal sphere. The spell works both inside 
>> and
>> outside a sphere. If your ship is travelling at spelljammer speed (or if 
>> you
>> are familiar with how fast it moves at tactical speed) you also know how
>> long it will take to travel to the portal."
>
> This looks workable, but I've not playtested it, or run it past
> the local rules lawyers. I hoped that by sticking as close to the
> original text as possible we could avoid having to playtest all
> the re-done spells.

Any rules lawyers on the list?

> Hmm. Maybe we need to add 3rdEd commentaries on spells, after
> making the minimum changes to the 2ndEd text to make the spell
> compatible with 3rdEd?
>
> I don't know.
>
> I'd certainly prefer to leave the 2ndEd text as alone as possible.

Don't forget that 2nd Edition is out of print and most people will be 
familiar with the 3rd Edition PHB or SRD styles.

<snip>


>> Are you happy for your credit to say Dreamer?
>
> OK, but you should be credited as well, as your input affected
> the spec.

Thanks.

> Unfortunately, I think this needs more work before it is agreed
> on...

Maybe. We'll probably need to go for a majority agreement as there are 
always one or two people that have issues with individual things.

You could always start parallel work on conversions of other spells. It 
would be interesting to see which spells get converted fastest and which get 
converted slowest.

I'll be offline for a while, so I wish everyone good luck with this.

(I'll try to get some other SJ stuff ready for when I come back).

David Shepheard