Re: Locate Portal conversion - Was: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Thu 30 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
>> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
>> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
>> >> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
>> >> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
>> >> >> > Dreamer wrote:
>> [resolved - snip]
> [snip]
>
> Actually, as I say in the other post, not really.

The thing that was resolved was the thing I snipped not the thing I left.

>> >> > It also assumes (as does the original) that a mile is a unit of
>> >> > measurement that makes sense to the caster of the spell. Maybe
>> >> > more useful would be how long it would take them to walk, in
>> >> > days, along the sphere surface, maybe assuming 10hr days and a
>> >> > man normally does about 3mls/hr? 25mls/day? Or, can you use
>> >> > Overdrive to get to portals? Or, is 'miles' something used so the
>> >> > players and DM don't need to worry about more detail in the game
>> >> > than is needed?
>> >>
>> >> Miles do predate medieval civilisation, I think they were Roman. 
>> >> Sailors
>> >> on Earth use miles, albeit nautical ones. They also measure speed in 
>> >> knots
>> >> (by letting a knotted rope trail out the back of a ship and counting 
>> >> the
>> >> knots).
>> >
>> > Some cultures are non-human, 'miles'??? Elves probably think they
>> > have a better way than miles to measure distances. A knot is
>> > about 1.1 mph, I vaguelly recall.
>>
>> Elves don't use miles? Elves don't exist. I think you are confusing 
>> Locate
>> Portal (the game mechanic written in English for D&D *players*) with 
>> Locate
>> Portal (the in-game spell for *characters*, which is written in the 
>> Arcane
>> language notations over several pages).
> [snip]
>
> As I say above: "is 'miles' something used so the players and DM
> don't need to worry". I just like to be clear what is DM/player
> mechanics, and what is character knowledge - I feel this makes
> for a better game.

Sorry I should have just said "yes" and avoided all this.

> Not ever having met an elf (or anyone who admitted to such!
> [grin] ) I don't know about how elves think about or handle
> distances, maybe they have some sort of instintive feel for them,
> or something, but elvish perception of distance is not the sort
> of detail that I feel usefully adds to the spell.

I'm sure you can find someone on the net who thinks they *are* an elf. I 
stumbled into a Klingon heavy metal band (called Stovokor*) the other day, 
so I'm sure the elves are out there.

* = We should definately lift the idea of this band and use it for some SJ 
fluff. Maybe we could have a ship that is crewed *entirely* by Orc Bards (we 
could use Scro, but I prefer to keep them in the past). They could be called 
something poetic like "Armistice" or "The Heart of My Enemy" and sing 
haunting ballads about the Unhuman War. If they sung as a high pitched choir 
that would be especially funny.

>> >> Crystal spheres are said to have no gravity or air envelope
>> >> (which might suggest you don't slow down), but the rules of tactical
>> >> speed state that a ship automaticallly slows down to tactical speed
>> >> if it gets near an object larger than a certain size. In the absence
>> >> of a specific rule for spheres, I'd say the tactical speed rule
>> >> overides what you mightthink of as common sense. However, even if a
>> >> ship slowed to tactical speed it would still hit the shell if the
>> >> helmsman didn't stop or turn.
>> >
>> > This makes sense, though you could argue that the shell is not an
>> > 'object'.
>>
>> I wouldn't argue that a sphere is not an object. It clearly *exists*, 
>> even
>> if it has no gravity or air envelope.
> [snip]
>
> The shell is a boundary. A place where the quality of reality
> changes. Boundaries exist. You don't claim that they are physical
> objects though.

A wall is both a boundry and a physical object. You can touch crystal sphers 
so they are objects.

> I could easily imagine a crystal sphere where if you hit the
> shell anywhere but a portal you appear on the exact opposite side
> of the sphere.

Portals are described as being holes in the sphere, but a sphere with 
portals of teleportation would be fun.

>> > If you can make your ship ethereal, even for a very brief period,
>> > doesn't that mean you don't normally need a portal? Or, doesn't
>> > the reverse of the Create Portal spell logic work?
>>
>> There were existing 2nd edition "core spells" that got you through a 
>> crystal
>> sphere. I don't have my books with me but a spell that makes an entire 
>> ship
>> ethereal would probably work. (What spell do you have in mind?)
>
> No particular spell, but 2ndEd Mass Invisibility is a 7th level
> spell version of the 2nd level personal Invisibility spell
> (indefinite duration) good enough to make many SJ ships invisible
> (180'x180'). So, if there is a low-level personal ethereality
> spell, with medium duration, I'd expect a very short duration one
> for a whole ship should be possible.

Which is easier, making a volume of crystal sphere etherial (it does have a 
thickness so does have a volume) or making a shp and its air envelope 
etherial?

Spells like Etherial Jaunt and Etherialness are very high levels, but can't 
get a shp thorough a sphere.

I think the create portal spell uses less energy than making a ship 
etherial, however a "Pass Through Sphere" spell (which did just that) could 
help you evade capture as any ship trying to follow you would ram the 
sphere.

>> >> >> Mark Doolan:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Locate Portal
>> >> >>[we all know what Mark wrote - so snip]
> [snip]
>
>> >> > The 'Duration' is not really explained in the text - does the
>> >> > spell continue running until you reach the portal, instead of
>> >> > just giving an instantaneous range and direction?
>> >>
>> >> What does the original say?
>> >
>> > The original is ambiguous, but I'd say the first version of the
>> > spell is closer to it. An instantaneous range and direction.
>>
>> But, what does it say? I haven't brought my gamebooks with me. If we
>> nit-pick the grammar we might be able to infer a clear intension.
> [snip]
>
> As a general principle, we should start with the 2ndEd text and
> the text of any spell conversions, to avoid confusion.
>
> (I see I've messed-up on the Duration, for example.)

We should reguard all of these conversions as suspicious and do our best to 
find and remove any errors or ambiguities.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> Locate Portal
> (Divination)
>
> Range: Special
> Components: V, S, M
> Duration: 1 round
> Casting Time: 1 turn
> Area of Effect: Special
> Saving Throw: None
>
> The caster of a Locate Portal spell can find the nearest portal
> through a crystal shell either into or out of the Flow.  The
> spell indicates direction and distance (either in miles or in
> travel time, should the cleric know the particulars of his own
> ship).
>
> In general, from any point on a crystal shell, the portals for a
> normal-sized ship are from 2-20 days away from any location.  At
> the moderator's option, there may be more portals than normal
> available, less, or none at all.  This is up to the DM to
> determine.
>
> The spell may only be cast within 100 yards of the surface of a
> crystal shell.
>
> The material component of this spell is a conch spell.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

It doesn't say the conch  shell is a focus, so I think it is meant to go pop 
(although I think it reads better if the shell doesn't go pop).

> I assume that the 'into or out of the Flow' implies casting the
> spell from within or outside the shell, not that some portals are
> one-way.

I'm sure some portals must be one way. The ones in the Astromundi Cluster 
certainly are if you are not an elf! LOL

> The reference to 'cleric' in a section headed 'Wizard Spells' is
> a little strange, but presumably a typo.

I think that is one of the reasons why WotC use "caster" at all times.

> The reference to 'normal-sized' implies that there are portals of
> different sizes. I didn't realise this!

It didn't registe with me, either.

So we could spin off the Create Portal spell to make Create Lesser Portal 
(which only works for ships up to a certain number of tons) and Create 
Greater Portal (which could let giant things - like a small asteroid or 
Dwarven Citadel enter the flow).

Different portals could have different saving throws when targeted by the 
Collapse Portal spell.

> The business of knowing the particulars of the ship does not seem
> to fit with travelling there at SJ speed, as this is the same for
> all ships.

I agree, I think this dates back from a proto-version of the rules where 
different ships moved at different speeds. I'd change it to knowing the helm 
and helmsman, as I suggested before.

> If you are travelling to a portal 2-20 (2D10) days away at
> continuous SJ speed then this implies that portals are 200
> million miles to 20000 million miles (2au to 20au) away.
>
> They give Earth's solar system as an example on pg.52 of CoAS; 72
> days (72au distance) from the Sun to Earth's system crystal
> shell.
>
> Earth's shell is 452au circumference, so to get to a portal on
> the far side of the shell, flying around the outside, is about
> 225 days (flying across the inside of the shell at most 144 days;
> maximum about a 100 days more likely; the spell above doesn't
> distinguish between flying to portals outside or inside).
>
> If portals are normally only about 20 days away at most then that
> means using Earth's system as an example they are at most about
> 1/20 of a circumference away, more commonly about 1/40. This
> gives some interesting hints about the distribution of portals on
> the surface of (standard) shells!
>
> (I hope I haven't messed-up the maths here - it's not my
> strongest suit!)

It is an interesting thing to think about, but I gave up when I realised you 
would need a three-dimensional pattern of portals across a sphere as a 
model.

> Looking at CoAS Appendix 2, the Earth system shell is 73au
> radius, the Krynn shell is 12au radius, the Greyhawk shell is
> 80au radius, and the Toril shell is 32au radius.
>
> If these are 'standard' shells I'm not sure what that says about
> the distribution of portals. But if Toril only has one portal
> then even if the river dropped you on the opposite side of the
> sphere to it then with a 200au circumference its 100 days away.

The exact number of portals in Realmspace is known, it is one portal per 
evil dead person chanting on the inner surface of the sphere. The portals 
close if the evil people stop singing, so this is not really related to 
sphere size.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard