Re: Locate Portal conversion - Was: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Thu 30 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
> >> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> >> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
> >> >> > Dreamer wrote:
[snip]

> >> >> Richard Gant:
> >> >>
> >> >> Locate Portal
> >> >>[we all know what this says now - so snip]
> >> > This looks OK, but I don't see why the casting time should drop
> >> > from one turn to one round - I would guess that this is orginally
> >> > not a spell intended for combat casting.
> >>
> >> According to the conversion manual a 1 turn spell should change to 10
> >> minutes. (Its 10 minutes per 2nd edition turn)
> >
> > I might have doubts about this...
> >
> > Yes, time is different between 2ndEd and 3rdEd, but that
> > conversion can massively increase the effective time a spell
> > takes to cast compared to the action that is going on.
> >
> > It takes a spell that you might be able to fight the enemy off
> > for long enough to cast, and turns it into a purely non-combat
> > spell. Ritual magic, rather than slow combat magic.
> 
> [resolved - snip]
[snip]

Actually, as I say in the other post, not really.


> >> > It also assumes (as does the original) that a mile is a unit of
> >> > measurement that makes sense to the caster of the spell. Maybe
> >> > more useful would be how long it would take them to walk, in
> >> > days, along the sphere surface, maybe assuming 10hr days and a
> >> > man normally does about 3mls/hr? 25mls/day? Or, can you use
> >> > Overdrive to get to portals? Or, is 'miles' something used so the
> >> > players and DM don't need to worry about more detail in the game
> >> > than is needed?
> >>
> >> Miles do predate medieval civilisation, I think they were Roman. Sailors
> >> on Earth use miles, albeit nautical ones. They also measure speed in knots
> >> (by letting a knotted rope trail out the back of a ship and counting the
> >> knots).
> >
> > Some cultures are non-human, 'miles'??? Elves probably think they
> > have a better way than miles to measure distances. A knot is
> > about 1.1 mph, I vaguelly recall.
> 
> Elves don't use miles? Elves don't exist. I think you are confusing Locate
> Portal (the game mechanic written in English for D&D *players*) with Locate
> Portal (the in-game spell for *characters*, which is written in the Arcane
> language notations over several pages).
[snip]

As I say above: "is 'miles' something used so the players and DM
don't need to worry". I just like to be clear what is DM/player
mechanics, and what is character knowledge - I feel this makes
for a better game.

Not ever having met an elf (or anyone who admitted to such!
[grin] ) I don't know about how elves think about or handle
distances, maybe they have some sort of instintive feel for them,
or something, but elvish perception of distance is not the sort
of detail that I feel usefully adds to the spell.


> Maybe you have got into the SJ world a bit *too* much. I hope you don't
> think you are reading this email using "Microsoft's Crystal Ball of Express
> Outlooking"!
> ;-)
[snip]

I wouldn't do that! I'd recommend the "Thunderbird of E-mail
Conveying", though! [grin]


> [snip - read that already]
> >> Crystal spheres are said to have no gravity or air envelope
> >> (which might suggest you don't slow down), but the rules of tactical
> >> speed state that a ship automaticallly slows down to tactical speed
> >> if it gets near an object larger than a certain size. In the absence
> >> of a specific rule for spheres, I'd say the tactical speed rule
> >> overides what you mightthink of as common sense. However, even if a
> >> ship slowed to tactical speed it would still hit the shell if the
> >> helmsman didn't stop or turn.
> >
> > This makes sense, though you could argue that the shell is not an
> > 'object'.
> 
> I wouldn't argue that a sphere is not an object. It clearly *exists*, even
> if it has no gravity or air envelope.
[snip]

The shell is a boundary. A place where the quality of reality
changes. Boundaries exist. You don't claim that they are physical
objects though.

I could easily imagine a crystal sphere where if you hit the
shell anywhere but a portal you appear on the exact opposite side
of the sphere.


> > If you can make your ship ethereal, even for a very brief period,
> > doesn't that mean you don't normally need a portal? Or, doesn't
> > the reverse of the Create Portal spell logic work?
> 
> There were existing 2nd edition "core spells" that got you through a crystal
> sphere. I don't have my books with me but a spell that makes an entire ship
> ethereal would probably work. (What spell do you have in mind?)

No particular spell, but 2ndEd Mass Invisibility is a 7th level
spell version of the 2nd level personal Invisibility spell
(indefinite duration) good enough to make many SJ ships invisible
(180'x180'). So, if there is a low-level personal ethereality
spell, with medium duration, I'd expect a very short duration one
for a whole ship should be possible.


> >> >> Mark Doolan:
> >> >>
> >> >> Locate Portal
> >> >>[we all know what Mark wrote - so snip]
[snip]

> >> > The 'Duration' is not really explained in the text - does the
> >> > spell continue running until you reach the portal, instead of
> >> > just giving an instantaneous range and direction?
> >>
> >> What does the original say?
> >
> > The original is ambiguous, but I'd say the first version of the
> > spell is closer to it. An instantaneous range and direction.
> 
> But, what does it say? I haven't brought my gamebooks with me. If we
> nit-pick the grammar we might be able to infer a clear intension.
[snip]

As a general principle, we should start with the 2ndEd text and
the text of any spell conversions, to avoid confusion.

(I see I've messed-up on the Duration, for example.)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Locate Portal
(Divination)

Range: Special
Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 round
Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None

The caster of a Locate Portal spell can find the nearest portal
through a crystal shell either into or out of the Flow.  The
spell indicates direction and distance (either in miles or in
travel time, should the cleric know the particulars of his own
ship).


In general, from any point on a crystal shell, the portals for a
normal-sized ship are from 2-20 days away from any location.  At
the moderator's option, there may be more portals than normal
available, less, or none at all.  This is up to the DM to
determine.

The spell may only be cast within 100 yards of the surface of a
crystal shell.

The material component of this spell is a conch spell.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

I assume that the 'into or out of the Flow' implies casting the
spell from within or outside the shell, not that some portals are
one-way.

The reference to 'cleric' in a section headed 'Wizard Spells' is
a little strange, but presumably a typo.

The reference to 'normal-sized' implies that there are portals of
different sizes. I didn't realise this!

The business of knowing the particulars of the ship does not seem
to fit with travelling there at SJ speed, as this is the same for
all ships.

If you are travelling to a portal 2-20 (2D10) days away at
continuous SJ speed then this implies that portals are 200
million miles to 20000 million miles (2au to 20au) away.


They give Earth's solar system as an example on pg.52 of CoAS; 72
days (72au distance) from the Sun to Earth's system crystal
shell.

Earth's shell is 452au circumference, so to get to a portal on
the far side of the shell, flying around the outside, is about
225 days (flying across the inside of the shell at most 144 days;
maximum about a 100 days more likely; the spell above doesn't
distinguish between flying to portals outside or inside).

If portals are normally only about 20 days away at most then that
means using Earth's system as an example they are at most about
1/20 of a circumference away, more commonly about 1/40. This
gives some interesting hints about the distribution of portals on
the surface of (standard) shells!

(I hope I haven't messed-up the maths here - it's not my
strongest suit!)

Looking at CoAS Appendix 2, the Earth system shell is 73au
radius, the Krynn shell is 12au radius, the Greyhawk shell is
80au radius, and the Toril shell is 32au radius.

If these are 'standard' shells I'm not sure what that says about
the distribution of portals. But if Toril only has one portal
then even if the river dropped you on the opposite side of the
sphere to it then with a 200au circumference its 100 days away.


> David "Big Mac" Shepheard

-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/