Re: Locate Portal conversion - Was: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
>> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
>> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
>> >> > Dreamer wrote:
> [snip]
>
> [[Posting split into two as combined exceeded list limit of 500
> lines.]]
Eek! I'll get a cup of coffee then.

>> >> Richard Gant:
>> >>
>> >> Locate Portal
>> >>[we all know what this says now - so snip]
>> > This looks OK, but I don't see why the casting time should drop
>> > from one turn to one round - I would guess that this is orginally
>> > not a spell intended for combat casting.
>>
>> According to the conversion manual a 1 turn spell should change to 10
>> minutes. (Its 10 minutes per 2nd edition turn)
>
> I might have doubts about this...
>
> Yes, time is different between 2ndEd and 3rdEd, but that
> conversion can massively increase the effective time a spell
> takes to cast compared to the action that is going on.
>
> It takes a spell that you might be able to fight the enemy off
> for long enough to cast, and turns it into a purely non-combat
> spell. Ritual magic, rather than slow combat magic.

[resolved - snip]

>> You wouldn't fly *along* the surface as that would make you drop to
>> tactical
>> speed. Don't forget that half the people casting this are on the outer
>> side
>> of the sphere. Don't also forget that spheres are so big that at close
>> range
>> they would almost appear to be flat.
>
> We discuss this below. Also, if your portal is a quarter of the
> diameter of the sphere away, or more... Would you fly at SJ speed
> just far enough away from the shell so it doesn't interfere?

I would - wouldn't you? The ship would use up all its air if you forced it
to drop to tactical speed. I *think* you only have to be 20 hexes away from
the sphere wall, to fly parallel to it at spelljammer speed. There is no
advantage to hugging the sphere wall.

>> > It also assumes (as does the original) that a mile is a unit of
>> > measurement that makes sense to the caster of the spell. Maybe
>> > more useful would be how long it would take them to walk, in
>> > days, along the sphere surface, maybe assuming 10hr days and a
>> > man normally does about 3mls/hr? 25mls/day? Or, can you use
>> > Overdrive to get to portals? Or, is 'miles' something used so the
>> > players and DM don't need to worry about more detail in the game
>> > than is needed?
>>
>> Miles do predate medieval civilisation, I think they were Roman. Sailors
>> on
>> Earth use miles, albeit nautical ones. They also measure speed in knots
>> (by
>> letting a knotted rope trail out the back of a ship and counting the
>> knots).
>
> Some cultures are non-human, 'miles'??? Elves probably think they
> have a better way than miles to measure distances. A knot is
> about 1.1 mph, I vaguelly recall.

Elves don't use miles? Elves don't exist. I think you are confusing Locate
Portal (the game mechanic written in English for D&D *players*) with Locate
Portal (the in-game spell for *characters*, which is written in the Arcane
language notations over several pages).

Elves might not have miles, but they would need units of distance, time and
speed to navigate (if they couldn't navigate the IEN would never have been
powerful). If you want to have an elf say "the portal is an hour's horse
ride away" to improve the suspension of disbelieve, then by all means do so,
but please lets not argue about what at mile is to a character. You and I
know what a mile is and so do the European Spelljammer players (who normally
use kilometres at home). If you want to go further with this topic please
save it for a background article (fluff). As fluff, it might make
interesting reading (it certainly could go some way to explaining why
wizards sometimes fail when trying to learn new spells). But it isn't
helpful to speculate on fictional-racial units of measurement, when
discussing game mechanics (crunch).

Maybe you have got into the SJ world a bit *too* much. I hope you don't
think you are reading this email using "Microsoft's Crystal Ball of Express
Outlooking"!
;-)

>> Nobody would *ever* walk on a sphere (unless they were an evil person in
>> Realmspace - LOL) so a measurement relating to distance or ship travel
>> time
>> would be the only thing they *could* relate to. If pre-spacefling
>> astrometry
>> could estimate the distance of the moon, sun and other solar system
>> bodies,
>> the navigators of wildspace would be quite capable of estimating
>> distances
>> and travel time. Don't forget that your air-supply and life depend on
>> knowing this stuff.
>
> Yes, but if you don't know the ship then the only relative
> measure for distance you are likely to have is how long you would
> take to walk it. I'm not saying that this is a vaguely sensible
> thing to do, but it is a way of measuring things that makes sense
> to people.
>
> If you look at how distances are described, how long it would
> take to walk there is quite a common measure - though this gets a
> _little_ painful for astronomical distances! [grin]

You don't *need* to know the ship. Firstly when unhindered all ships travel
at the same speed (spelljammer speed). Secondly if tactical speed navigation
is required, you still don't need to know the ship type - you need to know
the type of helm and the level of the helmsman. They are the two factors
involved in making the tactical speed calculation. Two different ships with
Major Helms and 15th level helmsmen have exactly the same ships rating and
travel the same number of hexes at tactical speed. The do perform
differently if they turn, but that is another issue the spellcaster could
not anticipate.

Don't forget who is normally casting the Locate Portal spell - the ships
navigator. The navigator can use all sorts of tools, maps and almanacs
(books listing projections of future planetary movements) to work out
exactly where they are and check their speed. It is part of their job. Just
roll a navigation check if you think they might go wrong.

Just as we real-life people have different units of distance for different
purposes - miles, astronomical units, light-years (distance not time!) and
parsecs, our fantasy counterparts would have their own versions. As I said
above conversions are about crunch - not fluff. But if you want to write a
fluffy article about this topic, then think of things like a day's walk, a
day's horse ride, a day at tactical speed and a day at spelljammer speed.
Spacefarers could relate to all of these (in fact they might *even* have
trouble relating to the slow distances if they live on small asteroids).

[snip - read that already]
>> Crystal spheres are said to have no gravity or air envelope
>> (which might suggest you don't slow down), but the rules of tactical
>> speed
>> state that a ship automaticallly slows down to tactical speed if it gets
>> near an object larger than a certain size. In the absence of a specific
>> rule
>> for spheres, I'd say the tactical speed rule overides what you might
>> think
>> of as common sense. However, even if a ship slowed to tactical speed it
>> would still hit the shell if the helmsman didn't stop or turn.
>
> This makes sense, though you could argue that the shell is not an
> 'object'.

I wouldn't argue that a sphere is not an object. It clearly *exists*, even
if it has no gravity or air envelope.

>> You also seem to have a slight misunderstanding of tactical speed. At
>> tactical speed a ship moves a number of hexes dependent on the helmsman's
>> ability and the type of helm. A 20th level helmsman on a Major Helm can
>> generate a ships rating (SR) of 10 - meaning that the ship can move
>> forward
>> at 10 hexes per spelljammer turn (this isn't the same as a round or 2e
>> turn - I'd convert all times to rounds). So if a ship collided with the
>> sphere and was instantly moving at a rate of 10 hexes per
>> turn/round/whatever towards the sphere, it would  still be bashing into
>> it.
>
> Yes, that is what I had understood. Tactical speed can be looked
> at as a velocity of at most a few tens of MPH, or in hexes (each
> 1500') per round. SR 1 is about 17mph, which is 8.8' per 6 second
> round (you could probably round to 9'/rnd for convenience). So at
> SR 1 it will take you about 170 rounds to cross a 1500' hex.
>
> Maybe 150' hexes would make more sense? Though, I've not messed
> enough with the SJ combat mechanics (I've always played combat in
> a very abstract way) to even start thinking about what changes
> would be sensible to make.

Tactical speed and Spelljammer combat turns are another conversion subject
to be dealt with. I don't want to go into them now, except to say, I'd like
to get SJ combat down to normal 3rd edition combat rounds, so that it could
be done with conventional forms of combat (at a pace 3rd edition players are
already familiar with). The 2nd edition version of ship combat makes it
something separate from normal combat - almost like a wargaming system.
(Anyone done a good SJ wargame, BTW? It could be fun to ignore role playing
once in a while and "fight the Unhuman War".)

>> Mark Doolan's "Collapse Portal" conversion suggests that a helmsman
>> ramming
>> a crystal sphere dies: "A ship ramming or being cut by a crystal sphere
>> sustains both collision damage and spelljammer shock (the helmsman must
>> save
>> vs. spell or die)." (This is not in keeping with the 2e rules, where
>> spelljammer shock puts you into a coma. He has also forgot to change the
>> save vs spell to a fortitude or will spell - I'd say will save as it
>> seems
>> to be a mental effect.)
>
> I'm not at all sure this makes sense. Ramming killing the
> Helmsman means that it is even less likely PCs will wish to do
> the job. What is wrong with the 2e game mechanics?
>
> I'd also guess that it is a Will save.

I don't think it does. The collision could kill the helmsman anyway, so I
wouldn't penalise them further. I'd make them save vs going into a coma (and
as I've said before, I'd do an [Unshockable] feat that allows something like
a second save attempt or +8 to rolls against spelljammer shock.) But that is
another one for later.

>> Ships also need to slow down at portals because they are good ambush
>> points.
>> Some pirates wait on one side and attack ships coming through.
>
> If the portal is open, going through really fast could be one
> defence. Human reaction speed of attackers has its limits.

Reaction speed may have limits, but cunning doesn't.

One bunch of pirates may spend ages carefully floating a large fishing net
full of barbed hooks over the portal. A ship flying through the net, could
become entangled in it. With sails and rigging being damaged or rendered
ineffective and deck crew taking damage and suffering the same effects as
being grappled.

Small spark generating mines could also be strewn across the region outside
a portal (think of a flint and steel attached to a mousetrap), so that a
ship flying into them at speed would suffer from phlogiston detonations
until it slowed down to tactical speed. I'm sure I could go on, but that
should be another thread/article.

> If you can make your ship ethereal, even for a very brief period,
> doesn't that mean you don't normally need a portal? Or, doesn't
> the reverse of the Create Portal spell logic work?

There were existing 2nd edition "core spells" that got you through a crystal
sphere. I don't have my books with me but a spell that makes an entire ship
ethereal would probably work. (What spell do you have in mind?)

>> >> Mark Doolan:
>> >>
>> >> Locate Portal
>> >>[we all know what Mark wrote - so snip]
>> > I don't think having extra Domains on standard spell descriptions
>> > is a good idea.
>>
>> That is standard 3rd edition practice. 3rd edition is cross referenced
>> better than 2nd edition. If we do use prestige domains they *must* be
>> mentioned in the main spell catalogue.
>
> OK, I'm sure others understand this far better than me.

Here is an online version of the SRD with spell lists on it:
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spellLists.htm

That is all we need for the SJ spell lists. As you can see there are seven
lists: bard spells, clerical spells, clerical domains, druid spells, paladin
spells, ranger spells and sorcerer/wizard spells. We should leave the issue
of potential new SJ domains till last, convert the spells and then come back
to see if we have enough spells to create any new domains.

Here is the "Find the Path" spell:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findthePath.htm

As you can see it is part of two domain as well as being a bard, cleric and
druid spell. The spell rules and description are not affected by being put
into domains, you just have a few extra words on the "Level" line. As long
as there wasn't a planet between you and a portal, I'd say this spell would
point you in the right direction (with an error margin added for every round
travelled after the spell ends). The Locate Portal spell might not even be
necessary if the ship's helmsman can fly a good spiral search pattern.

>> > The 'Duration' is not really explained in the text - does the
>> > spell continue running until you reach the portal, instead of
>> > just giving an instantaneous range and direction?
>>
>> What does the original say?
>
> The original is ambiguous, but I'd say the first version of the
> spell is closer to it. An instantaneous range and direction.

But, what does it say? I haven't brought my gamebooks with me. If we
nit-pick the grammar we might be able to infer a clear intension.

>> > As above (lengthy discussion), 'miles' as a unit of measurement
>> > might be questionable.
>>
>> Again I disagree with you and think that miles are fine. They are after
>> all
>> older than the language we are both writting.
>>
>> :-)
>
> OK, but only if 'mile' means anything to the caster!

As I said before, it only needs to mean something to the "player". The
caster can have their own in-game version in their own language and with
their own units of measurement. Now if you were complaining that D&D is not
written in SI units (kilometres, kilometres per hour, etc) you might have a
point (a scary one I wouldn't want to deal with - but a valid one).

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
House Sitting (and fixing my dead PC)
Watford
UK