Re: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the 
> Spelljammer Spells?
> 
> 
> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
> >> > Dreamer wrote:
> >> > I'm guessing that the spells that make (temporary) helms,
> >> > replenish air (on a smallish scale), and deal with being in a
> >> > crystal sphere foreign to your god/divine focus are the minimum.
> >>
> >> I'd also include the portal spells here: Locate Portal and Create Portal.
> >
> > Probably needed, assuming that there isn't a mundane way of
> > spotting them, or that anywhere on the shell can be passed as a
> > portal, both of which anyway would probably only apply to some
> > crystal spheres.
> 
> Don't forget that mundane methods would not work in the phlogiston. The 
> constantly moving rainbow ocean would make long distance observation very 
> difficullt.

One thing not made clear is how fast you can move over the outer
surface of a crystal sphere - and whether size means the same
thing on the outside as the inside. But, I would assume that for
most spheres this will not be an issue in getting to portals.

Spheres where the river doesn't deliver you near a portal, and
there are only a few portals on the surface...


> As most campaign settings describe the sky as black, I would say that most 
> inner sphere walls should be black or very dark. From the inside you would 
> be looking for a shimmering dot on the sphere wall.

That does assume it is visibly distinguishable, and again is
something that probably varies from sphere to sphere.

Fun spheres where the portals move around, only open a few days,
or even hours, at a time...


> If groundling sailors can use dolphins to locate tuna, perhaps some sort of 
> wildspace/phlogiston creature could be used to locate portals.

I like this idea! Portal Pilot fish! Another good reason to have
a druid SJ. Or, one of those usually unpopular monster-making
wizards!


> > Maybe we should throw in standard magic items, like the Portal
> > Compass (obvious function), and the Portal Lantern, which shines
> > a big circle of light on a shell, which then acts as a portal?
> 
> We should convert magical items and the rest of the campaign setting, but 
> lets finish the spells first.

Yes, but some fore-thought about what items spell be be enchanted
into may be useful (though not normally mentioned in the spell
specs), and items can substitute for not knowing the spells.


> > I also always thought things like Air Candles were an obvious
> > addition to SJ, given reasonable alchemy. (Obvious problems in
> > the Flow! [grin] ) This might fit the 3rdEd style of various
> > standard alchemical items for common sale. "Getting a bit stuffy
> > in here, lads. Shall I light another candle?" [grin]
> 
> Good idea, although "Incense of Air Purification" might sound more 
> realistic.

Air Candles are RW tech:

"Oxygen Candle: a mixture of sodium chlorate and iron, typically
enclosed in a metal housing, which smolders at 600degC, producing
iron oxide, sodium chloride, and approximately 6.5 man-hours of
oxygen gas per kilogram of candle."

copied from appendix B, "glossary", of "Lost in Transmission" by
Wil McCarthy (c) 2004.

Try googling!


> A more mundane way to provide clean air is to use plants. Druids and rangers 
> would be very good at choosing plants that can live onboard ship.

I think when I looked at the numbers you needed an awful lot of
plants!

Maybe a more efficient "Air Plant", which has a metabolism partly
based on magic, one large plant per ton (120 man-days of air),
might make sense. Gardener becomes a very important crew role!


> When we 
> get around to air I think we should switch from "tons" of air" to "man/days" 
> of air (to get rid of the 1 ton lasts 4 months equasion). Instead of saying 
> a Hammership displaces 60 tons of air we could say it displaces  7200 
> man/days of air (60tons x 4 months x 30 days). A GM could then subtract 1 
> man/day for every crew member (each day). If any crew died it would be easy 
> to stop subtracting them from the total remaining air.
> 
> Things like your Air Candle could add a fixed number of man/days to a ships 
> atmospheres. Plants could also refresh the atmosphere at a rate of man/days.
> 
> We can still touch on tons to assist people making new ships saying 
> something like: "every ton of ships mass displaces enough air to last 120 
> man/days".

I would agree with all this.

The candles would give almost exactly 3 man-hours per pound
weight of candle, so a (standard?) four pound candle would give a
man-day.


> >> > Loki wrote:
> >> > My suggestion is this: that we break them up according to
> >> > waht product they originally apppeared in (with another
> >> > category for new ones). It would mae for a more logical
> >> > division. Personally I would classify the ones from CoAS
> >> > as the "core," spells so useful and common that parrallel
> >> > lines of arcane research have developed them in most SJ
> >> > capable/based societies. Much like cure lt. wounds and
> >> > magic missile are to groundlings.
> >>
> >> This seems like a sensible proposal.  So there would be the following
> >> sections of spells:
> >>
> >> (1) Spells from Concordance of Arcane Space
> >> (2) Spells from Lost Ships
> >> (3) Spells from Astromundi Cluster
> >> (4) Spells from Adventure Modules
> >> (5) Contributed Spells
> >
> > Sounds good!
> 
> Spells from the Astromundi Cluster may well belong in a separate supplement. 
> Sun Magic is definately not something that should spread to the general SJ 
> spell lists. (If Astromundi spells are put into the BtM PDFs, then they 
> should all be unavailable to normal arcane spellcasters)
> 
> Maybe we could work on an Astromundi Cluster 3rd Edition conversion later. 
> (We could convert the spells now, but IMO they shouldn't go into BtM's "core 
> rules" PDFs.)
> 
> >> We would have to choose among the various conversions: Richard Gant's, 
> >> the
> >> ones on the Shattered Fractine, Alexander James' -- they're all a bit
> >> different.  Also, no one has yet posted a detailed conversion of Detect
> >> Powers, but then, the original in CoAS is a horrible mix of player and GM
> >> information that really should have been two separate sections.

> 
> Strictly speaking conversions should be just that, not adaptations. The one 
> that follows the conversion guidelines closest should normally be the one we 
> go for. Having said that, I think that Mark Doolan's switch from Enhance 
> Raiting and Decrease Raiting to Enhance Tactical Speed and Decrease Tactical 
> Speed is a great improvement in name.
> 
> >> On the other hand, I really like Mark Doolan's Stellar and Wildspace 
> >> Domains
> >> in the Shattered Fractine version.  However, they both rely on spells not
> >> from the Spelljammer books.  But they seem much more in the spirit of 
> >> 3.5e.
> >> I suppose the combination could be worked out, but it'd make the rules
> >> messier.  (David Shepheard has also proposed some Clerical Domains -- 
> >> Spelljamming, Sphere, Wildspace and Vacuum -- but they don't appear to be 
> >> as
> >> completely worked out.)
> 
> I don't know what Star Striding (from the Stellar Domain) is, or what game 
> effect the granted power has (similar to zero-g fighting, perhaps), but 
> apart from that the Stellar domain seems to work well.
> 
> The wildspace domain also seems to work well, although I initially found the 
> Starmantle description ambiguous (I didn't realise if the weapon of the 
> starmantle was destroyed).
> 
> "Freshen Air" is a more logical spellname than "Create Air" becuse fouled or 
> deadly air is still air and takes up just as much space as fresh air. I 
> might be tempted to use both this and Create Air (with create air gating in 
> extra air from the plane of elemental air - obviously that would stop it 
> working in the flow). A "creation" spell would be useful for the occasions 
> when you are somehow put into a vaccum (Mystaraspace is a place where 
> Freshen Air wouldn't help).

If there is too much air for the ship's gravity to hold, then the
excess will drift away. If you create more air, you want to make
sure it is the bad air that is lost, not the new stuff!

I suggested Trasmutation rather than Creation as you could argue
that it should not need quite so much magical power (spell
level), and carrying rock (a hopefully inexpensive but dense
material) that is transmuted into the same mass of air would seem
to make sense.

I've also seen people with air-scrubbing alchemy (and presumably
spells) which help by removing the carbon dioxide from the air,
though they don't add any more oxygen.

Maybe a Sewage-to-Rock spell might be useful, so a ship doesn't
waste any material?

Of course, doing a Rock-to-Bread spell, later... [grin]


> LOL - My proposed domains are not worked out at *all*. I was thinking of 
> coming back to them at the end (after we know how many spells we have to 
> work with).
> 
> > Domains are a nice idea, but I would recommend leaving them out
> > of the base spell rules, to avoid any more detail than is needed.
> >
> > Maybe Domains could be listed separately, in case DMs wish to use
> > them?
> 
> Sorry to nit-pick, but Domains are a *fundemental* part of the third edition 
> rules for clerics. We can do them *after* the rest of the work, but we 
> should look at them. DLCS, FRCS and LGCS all have extra domains that are not 
> listed in the PHB. People are going to expect some new ones to be there.
> 
> I know that some people don't like the way that 3rd edition clerics work, 
> but we have to work with the official game system.

Soory, I mis-said myself. I'm not suggesting the silly idea of
changing how clerics work in 3rdEd SJ. I was thinking more of
limiting detail on School Specialisation for wizards.


> >> We would also need to come to some sort of agreement on which 
> >> Spelljamming
> >> spells are available for:
> >>
> >> Bards
> >> Druids
> >> Paladins
> >> Rangers
> >> Warmages
> >>
> >> (OK, Warmages are probably not strictly necessary, but they're easy.  Wu 
> >> Jen
> >> would be a bit more work.)  Also, would Adepts get any Spelljamming 
> >> spells?
> 
> I'd leave Warmages out, but once the 3 BtM PDFs are finished, I'd take a 
> second look at them - they could go into the second edition of the PDFs (as 
> a prestige class). Actually if Warmages follow the normal PrC pattern of 
> "you gain spells as if you went up a level in an exisitng class", you don't 
> need a spell list for them.
> 
> I'd give adepts the arcane CoAS SJ spells. NPC adepts could then teach PC 
> wizards (or sorcerers?) how to cast a spell.
> 
> > Again, for simplicity, write up the spells just for wizards and
> > priests. Each other class can have its own mini section, listing
> > just a minimum of info, maybe like the PHB. Yes, this means that
> > the cross-referencing only goes one-way, but it ensures
> > simplicity.
> 
> The spells only get written once (not once per class). At the begining of 
> the section are spell lists (cross reference lists that say which class gets 
> which spells). Once we have the names, short descriptions and levels for the 
> spells the spell lists are relatively easy.
> 
> If in doubt, make the bard spell list identical to the wizard/sorcerer spell 
> list and the ranger, druid and paladin spell lists identical to the cleric 
> spell list (but with high levels cut off for classes that don't go that 
> high).

That all sounds reasonable.


[[Remaining replied to in second post, as combined post was
rejected by the list as exceeding the 500 line limit.]]

-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/