Re: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, David Shepheard wrote:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:20 AM
> Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the 
> Spelljammer Spells?
> 
> 
> > In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
> >> > Dreamer wrote:
[snip]

[[Posting split into two as combined exceeded list limit of 500
lines.]]


> >> Someone suggested we go through the spells one at a time and discuss 
> >> them.
> >> Let's start with the first spell in CoAS: Locate Portal.  I'll assume 
> >> that
> >> at least for the spells in CoAS that people have access to the originals,
> >> and just post existing conversions.
> >>
> >> Richard Gant:
> >>
> >> Locate Portal
> >> Divination
> >> Level: Sor/Wiz 2
> >> Components:  V, S, M
> >> Casting Time:  1 round
> >> Range:  Personal
> >> Duration:  Instantaneous
> >> Saving Throw:  None
> >> Spell Resistance:  No
> >>      This spell, which may only be cast at medium range (100 ft. + 10
> >> ft./level) to a crystal shell, informs the caster of the distance in 
> >> miles
> >> and the direction to the nearest natural portal through that crystal 
> >> shell.
> >> In general, from any point on a crystal shell, the portals for a
> >> normal-sized ship are 2d10 days away from a ship's current location.
> >>
> >>      Material Component:  A conch shell.
> >
> > This looks OK, but I don't see why the casting time should drop
> > from one turn to one round - I would guess that this is orginally
> > not a spell intended for combat casting.
> 
> According to the conversion manual a 1 turn spell should change to 10 
> minutes. (Its 10 minutes per 2nd edition turn)

I might have doubts about this...

Yes, time is different between 2ndEd and 3rdEd, but that
conversion can massively increase the effective time a spell
takes to cast compared to the action that is going on.

It takes a spell that you might be able to fight the enemy off
for long enough to cast, and turns it into a purely non-combat
spell. Ritual magic, rather than slow combat magic.


> > I'm not sure about the range being reduced, as needing to get
> > within a minimum of 130 ft (i.e. 3rd level) of a crystal shell in
> > a large ship, maybe travelling at speed, instead of the 300 ft of
> > the original spell, could be a bit risky.
> 
> Conversion should be about changing to the new SRD, it shouldn't be 
> adaptation. We should use 300ft.

OK.


> > This spell also loses the 'knowing the ship travel time' option
> > of the original spell. But, if it didn't, would this be travel in
> > a straight line, "as the crow flies", or along the surface of the
> > shell, or what?
> 
> You wouldn't fly *along* the surface as that would make you drop to tactical 
> speed. Don't forget that half the people casting this are on the outer side 
> of the sphere. Don't also forget that spheres are so big that at close range 
> they would almost appear to be flat.

We discuss this below. Also, if your portal is a quarter of the
diameter of the sphere away, or more... Would you fly at SJ speed
just far enough away from the shell so it doesn't interfere?


> > It also assumes (as does the original) that a mile is a unit of
> > measurement that makes sense to the caster of the spell. Maybe
> > more useful would be how long it would take them to walk, in
> > days, along the sphere surface, maybe assuming 10hr days and a
> > man normally does about 3mls/hr? 25mls/day? Or, can you use
> > Overdrive to get to portals? Or, is 'miles' something used so the
> > players and DM don't need to worry about more detail in the game
> > than is needed?
> 
> Miles do predate medieval civilisation, I think they were Roman. Sailors on 
> Earth use miles, albeit nautical ones. They also measure speed in knots (by 
> letting a knotted rope trail out the back of a ship and counting the knots).

Some cultures are non-human, 'miles'??? Elves probably think they
have a better way than miles to measure distances. A knot is
about 1.1 mph, I vaguelly recall.


> Nobody would *ever* walk on a sphere (unless they were an evil person in 
> Realmspace - LOL) so a measurement relating to distance or ship travel time 
> would be the only thing they *could* relate to. If pre-spacefling astrometry 
> could estimate the distance of the moon, sun and other solar system bodies, 
> the navigators of wildspace would be quite capable of estimating distances 
> and travel time. Don't forget that your air-supply and life depend on 
> knowing this stuff.

Yes, but if you don't know the ship then the only relative
measure for distance you are likely to have is how long you would
take to walk it. I'm not saying that this is a vaguely sensible
thing to do, but it is a way of measuring things that makes sense
to people.

If you look at how distances are described, how long it would
take to walk there is quite a common measure - though this gets a
_little_ painful for astronomical distances! [grin]


> > And, this version only detects natural, not all, portals.
> 
> We can do a correct conversion to fix this.
> 
> > (Incidentally, does being near a crystal sphere shell drop you
> > out of Overdrive? I don't recall seeing the answer to this
> > anywhere. I _assume_ most ships slow down to tactical speed, just
> > a few tens of mph, on entering or leaving spheres, just in case
> > they need to change direction fast. But, does ramming the shell
> > at Overdrive speed safely drop you to tactical speed, or splatter
> > you? If splatter, given Overdrive speed, and human reaction
> > times, how far away from the shell should you brake to tactical
> > for safety? If splatter, how far away can a lookout spot a (dark)
> > shell? Or, can the Helmsman tell the shell is near and safely
> > deal with all this? Is stop/splatter crystal sphere dependent?
> > ... Just Asking ... )
> 
> You mean "spelljamming speed" (not overdrive - there is no such thing as 
> overdrive). Crystal spheres are said to have no gravity or air envelope 
> (which might suggest you don't slow down), but the rules of tactical speed 
> state that a ship automaticallly slows down to tactical speed if it gets 
> near an object larger than a certain size. In the absence of a specific rule 
> for spheres, I'd say the tactical speed rule overides what you might think 
> of as common sense. However, even if a ship slowed to tactical speed it 
> would still hit the shell if the helmsman didn't stop or turn.

This makes sense, though you could argue that the shell is not an
'object'.


> You also seem to have a slight misunderstanding of tactical speed. At 
> tactical speed a ship moves a number of hexes dependent on the helmsman's 
> ability and the type of helm. A 20th level helmsman on a Major Helm can 
> generate a ships raiting (SR) of 10 - meaning that the ship can move forward 
> at 10 hexes per spelljammer turn (this isn't the same as a round or 2e 
> turn - I'd convert all times to rounds). So if a ship collided with the 
> sphere and was instantly moving at a rate of 10 hexes per 
> turn/round/whatever towards the sphere, it would  still be bashing into it.

Yes, that is what I had understood. Tactical speed can be looked
at as a velocity of at most a few tens of MPH, or in hexes (each
1500') per round. SR 1 is about 17mph, which is 8.8' per 6 second
round (you could probably round to 9'/rnd for convenience). So at
SR 1 it will take you about 170 rounds to cross a 1500' hex.

Maybe 150' hexes would make more sense? Though, I've not messed
enough with the SJ combat mechanics (I've always played combat in
a very abstract way) to even start thinking about what changes
would be sensible to make.


> Mark Doolan's "Collapse Portal" conversion suggests that a helmsman ramming 
> a crystal sphere dies: "A ship ramming or being cut by a crystal sphere 
> sustains both collision damage and spelljammer shock (the helmsman must save 
> vs. spell or die)." (This is not in keeping with the 2e rules, where 
> spelljammer shock puts you into a coma. He has also forgot to change the 
> save vs spell to a fortitude or will spell - I'd say will save as it seems 
> to be a mental effect.)

I'm not at all sure this makes sense. Ramming killing the
Helmsman means that it is even less likely PCs will wish to do
the job. What is wrong with the 2e game mechanics?

I'd also guess that it is a Will save.


> Ships also need to slow down at portals because they are good ambush points. 
> Some pirates wait on one side and attack ships coming through.

If the portal is open, going through really fast could be one
defence. Human reaction speed of attackers has its limits.

If you can make your ship ethereal, even for a very brief period,
doesn't that mean you don't normally need a portal? Or, doesn't
the reverse of the Create Portal spell logic work?


> >> Mark Doolan:
> >>
> >> Locate Portal
> >> Divination
> >> Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Wildspace 1
> >> Components: V, S and M
> >> Casting Time 1 minute
> >> Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft. /level)
> >> Target: Crystal shere
> >> Duration: See text
> >> Saving Throw: None
> >> Spell Resistance: No
> >>
> >>
> >>     This spell only works when within range of the surface of a Crystal
> >> Sphere. The caster of a locate portal can find the nearest portal through
> >> the crystal shell either into or out of the Flow (phlogiston). The spell
> >> indicates direction and distance (either in miles or in travel time, 
> >> should
> >> the wizard know the particulars of his own ship).
> >>
> >>     In general, from any point in the crystal shell, a portal suitable 
> >> for a
> >> normal sizes ship can be found within 2-20 days travel. At the DM's 
> >> option,
> >> there may be more portals available, fewer or not at all.
> >>
> >>     Material Component: A conch shell.
> >
> > An OK description, but it needs spellchecking.
> 
> Actually, I'd also move the bracket in the sentence about distance and time 
> (so that it scans better - without the text in brackets). I'd also use the 
> word "caster" to replace the word "wizard" or "cleric" from all spell 
> decriptions:
> 
> "The spell indicates direction and distance in miles (or in travel time, 
> should the caster know the particulars of their own ship)."
> 
> (I also try to avoid his or hers - WotC alternate them, but I find that type 
> of political correctness a bit annoying.)
> 
> > I don't think having extra Domains on standard spell descriptions
> > is a good idea.
> 
> That is standard 3rd edition practice. 3rd edition is cross referenced 
> better than 2nd edition. If we do use prestige domains they *must* be 
> mentioned in the main spell catalogue.

OK, I'm sure others understand this far better than me.


> > The range looks OK.
> 
> The range follows the conversion guidelines exactly, so it is perfect.
> 
> > The 'Duration' is not really explained in the text - does the
> > spell continue running until you reach the portal, instead of
> > just giving an instantaneous range and direction?
> 
> What does the original say?

The original is ambiguous, but I'd say the first version of the
spell is closer to it. An instantaneous range and direction.


> > As above (lengthy discussion), 'miles' as a unit of measurement
> > might be questionable.
> 
> Again I disagree with you and think that miles are fine. They are after all 
> older than the language we are both writting.
> 
> :-)

OK, but only if 'mile' means anything to the caster!


> David Shepheard 

-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/