Re: Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the Spelljammer Spells?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dreamer" <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Whatever happened to the 3.5e conversions to the 
Spelljammer Spells?


> In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 29 Mar, Peter Aronson wrote:
>> > Dreamer wrote:
>> > I'm guessing that the spells that make (temporary) helms,
>> > replenish air (on a smallish scale), and deal with being in a
>> > crystal sphere foreign to your god/divine focus are the minimum.
>>
>> I'd also include the portal spells here: Locate Portal and Create Portal.
>
> Probably needed, assuming that there isn't a mundane way of
> spotting them, or that anywhere on the shell can be passed as a
> portal, both of which anyway would probably only apply to some
> crystal spheres.

Don't forget that mundane methods would not work in the phlogiston. The 
constantly moving rainbow ocean would make long distance observation very 
difficullt.

As most campaign settings describe the sky as black, I would say that most 
inner sphere walls should be black or very dark. From the inside you would 
be looking for a shimmering dot on the sphere wall.

If groundling sailors can use dolphins to locate tuna, perhaps some sort of 
wildspace/phlogiston creature could be used to locate portals.

> Maybe we should throw in standard magic items, like the Portal
> Compass (obvious function), and the Portal Lantern, which shines
> a big circle of light on a shell, which then acts as a portal?

We should convert magical items and the rest of the campaign setting, but 
lets finish the spells first.

> I also always thought things like Air Candles were an obvious
> addition to SJ, given reasonable alchemy. (Obvious problems in
> the Flow! [grin] ) This might fit the 3rdEd style of various
> standard alchemical items for common sale. "Getting a bit stuffy
> in here, lads. Shall I light another candle?" [grin]

Good idea, although "Incense of Air Purification" might sound more 
realistic.

A more mundane way to provide clean air is to use plants. Druids and rangers 
would be very good at choosing plants that can live onboard ship. When we 
get around to air I think we should switch from "tons" of air" to "man/days" 
of air (to get rid of the 1 ton lasts 4 months equasion). Instead of saying 
a Hammership displaces 60 tons of air we could say it displaces  7200 
man/days of air (60tons x 4 months x 30 days). A GM could then subtract 1 
man/day for every crew member (each day). If any crew died it would be easy 
to stop subtracting them from the total remaining air.

Things like your Air Candle could add a fixed number of man/days to a ships 
atmospheres. Plants could also refresh the atmosphere at a rate of man/days.

We can still touch on tons to assist people making new ships saying 
something like: "every ton of ships mass displaces enough air to last 120 
man/days".

>> > Loki wrote:
>> > My suggestion is this: that we break them up according to
>> > waht product they originally apppeared in (with another
>> > category for new ones). It would mae for a more logical
>> > division. Personally I would classify the ones from CoAS
>> > as the "core," spells so useful and common that parrallel
>> > lines of arcane research have developed them in most SJ
>> > capable/based societies. Much like cure lt. wounds and
>> > magic missile are to groundlings.
>>
>> This seems like a sensible proposal.  So there would be the following
>> sections of spells:
>>
>> (1) Spells from Concordance of Arcane Space
>> (2) Spells from Lost Ships
>> (3) Spells from Astromundi Cluster
>> (4) Spells from Adventure Modules
>> (5) Contributed Spells
>
> Sounds good!

Spells from the Astromundi Cluster may well belong in a separate supplement. 
Sun Magic is definately not something that should spread to the general SJ 
spell lists. (If Astromundi spells are put into the BtM PDFs, then they 
should all be unavailable to normal arcane spellcasters)

Maybe we could work on an Astromundi Cluster 3rd Edition conversion later. 
(We could convert the spells now, but IMO they shouldn't go into BtM's "core 
rules" PDFs.)

>> We would have to choose among the various conversions: Richard Gant's, 
>> the
>> ones on the Shattered Fractine, Alexander James' -- they're all a bit
>> different.  Also, no one has yet posted a detailed conversion of Detect
>> Powers, but then, the original in CoAS is a horrible mix of player and GM
>> information that really should have been two separate sections.

Strictly speaking conversions should be just that, not adaptations. The one 
that follows the conversion guidelines closest should normally be the one we 
go for. Having said that, I think that Mark Doolan's switch from Enhance 
Raiting and Decrease Raiting to Enhance Tactical Speed and Decrease Tactical 
Speed is a great improvement in name.

>> On the other hand, I really like Mark Doolan's Stellar and Wildspace 
>> Domains
>> in the Shattered Fractine version.  However, they both rely on spells not
>> from the Spelljammer books.  But they seem much more in the spirit of 
>> 3.5e.
>> I suppose the combination could be worked out, but it'd make the rules
>> messier.  (David Shepheard has also proposed some Clerical Domains -- 
>> Spelljamming, Sphere, Wildspace and Vacuum -- but they don't appear to be 
>> as
>> completely worked out.)

I don't know what Star Striding (from the Stellar Domain) is, or what game 
effect the granted power has (similar to zero-g fighting, perhaps), but 
apart from that the Stellar domain seems to work well.

The wildspace domain also seems to work well, although I initially found the 
Starmantle description ambiguous (I didn't realise if the weapon of the 
starmantle was destroyed).

"Freshen Air" is a more logical spellname than "Create Air" becuse fouled or 
deadly air is still air and takes up just as much space as fresh air. I 
might be tempted to use both this and Create Air (with create air gating in 
extra air from the plane of elemental air - obviously that would stop it 
working in the flow). A "creation" spell would be useful for the occasions 
when you are somehow put into a vaccum (Mystaraspace is a place where 
Freshen Air wouldn't help).

LOL - My proposed domains are not worked out at *all*. I was thinking of 
coming back to them at the end (after we know how many spells we have to 
work with).

> Domains are a nice idea, but I would recommend leaving them out
> of the base spell rules, to avoid any more detail than is needed.
>
> Maybe Domains could be listed separately, in case DMs wish to use
> them?

Sorry to nit-pick, but Domains are a *fundemental* part of the third edition 
rules for clerics. We can do them *after* the rest of the work, but we 
should look at them. DLCS, FRCS and LGCS all have extra domains that are not 
listed in the PHB. People are going to expect some new ones to be there.

I know that some people don't like the way that 3rd edition clerics work, 
but we have to work with the official game system.

>> We would also need to come to some sort of agreement on which 
>> Spelljamming
>> spells are available for:
>>
>> Bards
>> Druids
>> Paladins
>> Rangers
>> Warmages
>>
>> (OK, Warmages are probably not strictly necessary, but they're easy.  Wu 
>> Jen
>> would be a bit more work.)  Also, would Adepts get any Spelljamming 
>> spells?

I'd leave Warmages out, but once the 3 BtM PDFs are finished, I'd take a 
second look at them - they could go into the second edition of the PDFs (as 
a prestige class). Actually if Warmages follow the normal PrC pattern of 
"you gain spells as if you went up a level in an exisitng class", you don't 
need a spell list for them.

I'd give adepts the arcane CoAS SJ spells. NPC adepts could then teach PC 
wizards (or sorcerers?) how to cast a spell.

> Again, for simplicity, write up the spells just for wizards and
> priests. Each other class can have its own mini section, listing
> just a minimum of info, maybe like the PHB. Yes, this means that
> the cross-referencing only goes one-way, but it ensures
> simplicity.

The spells only get written once (not once per class). At the begining of 
the section are spell lists (cross reference lists that say which class gets 
which spells). Once we have the names, short descriptions and levels for the 
spells the spell lists are relatively easy.

If in doubt, make the bard spell list identical to the wizard/sorcerer spell 
list and the ranger, druid and paladin spell lists identical to the cleric 
spell list (but with high levels cut off for classes that don't go that 
high).

>> Someone suggested we go through the spells one at a time and discuss 
>> them.
>> Let's start with the first spell in CoAS: Locate Portal.  I'll assume 
>> that
>> at least for the spells in CoAS that people have access to the originals,
>> and just post existing conversions.
>>
>> Richard Gant:
>>
>> Locate Portal
>> Divination
>> Level: Sor/Wiz 2
>> Components:  V, S, M
>> Casting Time:  1 round
>> Range:  Personal
>> Duration:  Instantaneous
>> Saving Throw:  None
>> Spell Resistance:  No
>>      This spell, which may only be cast at medium range (100 ft. + 10
>> ft./level) to a crystal shell, informs the caster of the distance in 
>> miles
>> and the direction to the nearest natural portal through that crystal 
>> shell.
>> In general, from any point on a crystal shell, the portals for a
>> normal-sized ship are 2d10 days away from a ship's current location.
>>
>>      Material Component:  A conch shell.
>
> This looks OK, but I don't see why the casting time should drop
> from one turn to one round - I would guess that this is orginally
> not a spell intended for combat casting.

According to the conversion manual a 1 turn spell should change to 10 
minutes. (Its 10 minutes per 2nd edition turn)

> I'm not sure about the range being reduced, as needing to get
> within a minimum of 130 ft (i.e. 3rd level) of a crystal shell in
> a large ship, maybe travelling at speed, instead of the 300 ft of
> the original spell, could be a bit risky.

Conversion should be about changing to the new SRD, it shouldn't be 
adaptation. We should use 300ft.

> This spell also loses the 'knowing the ship travel time' option
> of the original spell. But, if it didn't, would this be travel in
> a straight line, "as the crow flies", or along the surface of the
> shell, or what?

You wouldn't fly *along* the surface as that would make you drop to tactical 
speed. Don't forget that half the people casting this are on the outer side 
of the sphere. Don't also forget that spheres are so big that at close range 
they would almost appear to be flat.

> It also assumes (as does the original) that a mile is a unit of
> measurement that makes sense to the caster of the spell. Maybe
> more useful would be how long it would take them to walk, in
> days, along the sphere surface, maybe assuming 10hr days and a
> man normally does about 3mls/hr? 25mls/day? Or, can you use
> Overdrive to get to portals? Or, is 'miles' something used so the
> players and DM don't need to worry about more detail in the game
> than is needed?

Miles do predate medieval civilisation, I think they were Roman. Sailors on 
Earth use miles, albeit nautical ones. They also measure speed in knots (by 
letting a knotted rope trail out the back of a ship and counting the knots).

Nobody would *ever* walk on a sphere (unless they were an evil person in 
Realmspace - LOL) so a measurement relating to distance or ship travel time 
would be the only thing they *could* relate to. If pre-spacefling astrometry 
could estimate the distance of the moon, sun and other solar system bodies, 
the navigators of wildspace would be quite capable of estimating distances 
and travel time. Don't forget that your air-supply and life depend on 
knowing this stuff.

> And, this version only detects natural, not all, portals.

We can do a correct conversion to fix this.

> (Incidentally, does being near a crystal sphere shell drop you
> out of Overdrive? I don't recall seeing the answer to this
> anywhere. I _assume_ most ships slow down to tactical speed, just
> a few tens of mph, on entering or leaving spheres, just in case
> they need to change direction fast. But, does ramming the shell
> at Overdrive speed safely drop you to tactical speed, or splatter
> you? If splatter, given Overdrive speed, and human reaction
> times, how far away from the shell should you brake to tactical
> for safety? If splatter, how far away can a lookout spot a (dark)
> shell? Or, can the Helmsman tell the shell is near and safely
> deal with all this? Is stop/splatter crystal sphere dependent?
> ... Just Asking ... )

You mean "spelljamming speed" (not overdrive - there is no such thing as 
overdrive). Crystal spheres are said to have no gravity or air envelope 
(which might suggest you don't slow down), but the rules of tactical speed 
state that a ship automaticallly slows down to tactical speed if it gets 
near an object larger than a certain size. In the absence of a specific rule 
for spheres, I'd say the tactical speed rule overides what you might think 
of as common sense. However, even if a ship slowed to tactical speed it 
would still hit the shell if the helmsman didn't stop or turn.

You also seem to have a slight misunderstanding of tactical speed. At 
tactical speed a ship moves a number of hexes dependent on the helmsman's 
ability and the type of helm. A 20th level helmsman on a Major Helm can 
generate a ships raiting (SR) of 10 - meaning that the ship can move forward 
at 10 hexes per spelljammer turn (this isn't the same as a round or 2e 
turn - I'd convert all times to rounds). So if a ship collided with the 
sphere and was instantly moving at a rate of 10 hexes per 
turn/round/whatever towards the sphere, it would  still be bashing into it.

Mark Doolan's "Collapse Portal" conversion suggests that a helmsman ramming 
a crystal sphere dies: "A ship ramming or being cut by a crystal sphere 
sustains both collision damage and spelljammer shock (the helmsman must save 
vs. spell or die)." (This is not in keeping with the 2e rules, where 
spelljammer shock puts you into a coma. He has also forgot to change the 
save vs spell to a fortitude or will spell - I'd say will save as it seems 
to be a mental effect.)

Ships also need to slow down at portals because they are good ambush points. 
Some pirates wait on one side and attack ships coming through.

>> Mark Doolan:
>>
>> Locate Portal
>> Divination
>> Level: Sor/Wiz 2, Wildspace 1
>> Components: V, S and M
>> Casting Time 1 minute
>> Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft. /level)
>> Target: Crystal shere
>> Duration: See text
>> Saving Throw: None
>> Spell Resistance: No
>>
>>
>>     This spell only works when within range of the surface of a Crystal
>> Sphere. The caster of a locate portal can find the nearest portal through
>> the crystal shell either into or out of the Flow (phlogiston). The spell
>> indicates direction and distance (either in miles or in travel time, 
>> should
>> the wizard know the particulars of his own ship).
>>
>>     In general, from any point in the crystal shell, a portal suitable 
>> for a
>> normal sizes ship can be found within 2-20 days travel. At the DM's 
>> option,
>> there may be more portals available, fewer or not at all.
>>
>>     Material Component: A conch shell.
>
> An OK description, but it needs spellchecking.

Actually, I'd also move the bracket in the sentence about distance and time 
(so that it scans better - without the text in brackets). I'd also use the 
word "caster" to replace the word "wizard" or "cleric" from all spell 
decriptions:

"The spell indicates direction and distance in miles (or in travel time, 
should the caster know the particulars of their own ship)."

(I also try to avoid his or hers - WotC alternate them, but I find that type 
of political correctness a bit annoying.)

> I don't think having extra Domains on standard spell descriptions
> is a good idea.

That is standard 3rd edition practice. 3rd edition is cross referenced 
better than 2nd edition. If we do use prestige domains they *must* be 
mentioned in the main spell catalogue.

> The range looks OK.

The range follows the conversion guidelines exactly, so it is perfect.

> The 'Duration' is not really explained in the text - does the
> spell continue running until you reach the portal, instead of
> just giving an instantaneous range and direction?

What does the original say?

> As above (lengthy discussion), 'miles' as a unit of measurement
> might be questionable.

Again I disagree with you and think that miles are fine. They are after all 
older than the language we are both writting.

:-)

David Shepheard