Re: Should PCs be able to build helms. Was: Alternative helm creation

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 07 Dec, David Shepheard wrote:
> >From: Dreamer <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> >Reply-To: Spelljammer Setting Discussion <SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com>
> >To: SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com
> >Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Alternative helm creation
> >Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 15:15:34 +0000
> >
> >In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Mon 14 Nov, Bart Dedecker wrote:
> > > Keep the creation of helms for the Arcane...
[snip]

> >I'm afraid I must disagree with you.
> >
> >It is pretty clear that the Arcane/Mercane have some sort of big
> >edge in Helm creation, but, it is also pretty clear that they are
> >not the only ones building them.
> 
> That wasn't the impression I got from reading the SJ boxed set and other 
> suppliments. I got the impression that the arcane viewed helm production as 
> some sort of industrial secret. I got the impresion that they *did* have a 
> monopoly (at least, they do at the moment). Are you saying what you think 
> spelljammer *should* be like or are you refering to something a specific 
> product? Please supply a book and page reference, if I am wrong about how 
> the arcane fit into SJ.

"The Concordance of Arcane Space", Power Sources, pg. 33:

"Helms may be acquired through a number of means, the most usual
being discovery in old ruins or raiding an enemy ship for its
helm."

The above is the classical Gygaxian magic-item/treasure
acquisition system.

"They may be researched and built by high-level wizards at great
expense in both gold and time."

The above implies to me that given Helms have been around a long
time, this will have happened quite often. Certainly the elves
will have done it. Almost certainly there are human wizards who
have. It does not imply that any materials that cannot be located
on a world (or maybe with dimensional travel) are needed.

"Or they may be purchased from the Arcane..."

If DMs wish to have these in their campaign, or active in the
area where the campaign starts, is my reading of this.


> I think that some non-arcane should know how to build some helms. However, 
> mostly these people would keep that very quiet. A lone wizard with a "how to 
> build minor helms" book would probably be the target of arcane assasination 
> or kidnap by rival groups.

If the Arcane/Mercane are stupid enough to let it be known they
will use assassination to hold on to the secret of Helm making,
then you can guarantee this will cause people previously enemies
to ally to discover the secret, and what the Arcane wish to hide
about the making of Helms. And to stomp the Arcane.

A bloody-minded wizard would use a spell to produce lots of
copies of their book, and send it off in ships going in lots of
directions, just to upset the Arcane. Or, randomly Teleport
copies to other crystal spheres. Or, donate copies to be
distributed by the priests of Ptah and Celestine.

Spell research just needs to be free! [grin]


> >The elves would not let someone else be their only source of
> >supply, and I think the Vodani made their own. Furnace Helms were
> >probably not all made by the Arcane either.
> 
> I agree that the elves would not like to be in that position, but do not 
> remember anything in any book I read that said they were not at the mercy of 
> the arcane. Would you please give me a page reference where it says they 
> *can* make their own helms.

See above.


> I'm not massively familiar with the Vodani, but I do recall that they "only" 
> controll a small number of spheres (12 I think). If the EIN can't outsmart 
> the arcane then the Vodani don't *need* to. I thought they were an agressive 
> race. If they are, they don't need to make helms - they can just steal them 
> from inferior races that they defeat.

The Vodani got trashed. In your campaign maybe the Arcane were to
blame? I believe that the Vodani had things like Furnace Golems,
which could spelljam on their own, certainly implying a thorough
understanding of Helm making. I've not studied the module. If you
want to take Helms off others by force, regularly and reliably,
you need a minimum critical number to start this game. That is
what tends to limit the size of pirate groups.


> >It's undercutting the others that the Arcane excel at - a Minor
> >Helm at 100,000gp - the cheapest I've seen them sold for if built
> >by 'standard' enchantment is 250,000gp, and 500,000gp is more
> >credible.
> 
> Apart from the Minor and Major helms. Most helm types have some sort of 
> built in disadvantage that makes players not want to use them. Furnaces 
> explode if you enter the flow. Series helms are useless unless you are a 
> mind flayer. Orbus are also useless. Non spellcasting helms give poor SRs 
> and automatically die if they get "spelljammer shock", so they are less 
> likely to win during ship to ship combat.

You want plenty of 'flavour' in Helm types, to give DMs more
possibilities.

CoAS, pg. 36:

"Series helms are the invention of the illithids (mind flayers),
but the idea has been adapted for a number of races..."

So, not just mind flayers.

And, if they can 'invent' a Helm type, then even though their
alien minds might give them some sort of advantage here, I'm
pretty sure other races can.


> >Yes, you could have a campaign where the Arcane are the only
> >source, but I think you would want to re-work the logic of the
> >standard SJ setting in a few places.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned the "Arcane are the only source" campaign is the 
> default SJ campaign setting. It is part of what makes them have power in 
> space.
> 
> What *you* are proposing is *changing* the setting (from my point of view), 
> however that *could* be a good thing. It *could* be better if other races 
> could build some types of helm.

See above.


> But instead of saying: "everyone can *already* make spelljamming helms," I 
> think it is better to say: "the other races are on the brink of learning the 
> arcane's secret." That way when your PCs find out how to create helms (or 
> meet the wizard/cleric that has spent the last 30 years perfecting the 
> method) you can have a massive chase across the spheres as various people 
> try to steal the secret for themselves.

That could be a fun campaign setting. Times of change often make
for all sorts of interesting possibilities! But, I think you
would have to set this in the far distant past of the standard SJ
setting, maybe after a Dark Age, or in a non-standard sphere.


> The process can then be a part of your ongoing campaign. The PCs could 
> struggle for a year or so to actually find a secret location (where they 
> won't be disturbed) and manage to perfect the method. (I would actually make 
> the cost of avoiding the espionage by opposing groups so high that the first 
> helm costs way more than it is worth. (Think of the United Kingdom 
> government getting Colin Pillinger (the Beagle II man) to duplicate the 
> Space Shuttle without NASA finding out what he was doing!)

The UK terminated its rocket research program in 1960, with Blue
Streak, which supposedly could have been adapted for sattellite
launching. If the UK had continued with this, or been properly
involved in the European space program... No, I'm not bitter!
[grin] How about stealing part of the design from the Hermes
shuttle? [grin]


> >For example, how do groundlings get off-world to where the Arcane
> >are in the first place, so as to be able to trade with them? At
> >least some crude sorts of Helms should be possible to non-Arcane.
> >I very much doubt that the Arcane are watching lots of worlds in
> >the hope of acquiring new customers.
> 
> Don't forget that 99.99 percent of groundlings don't get off of their 
> worlds. Most of them don't even leave their own country. In D&D culture most 
> people don't even move out of their own villages. Most of them don't even 
> realise there is anyone up above their world (or even on the other side of 
> their own world). Groundlings don't "need" to build helms because they don't 
> "want" to go up into space. You might as well ask why groundlings don't 
> build magical devices that let them live under the sea or let them turn into 
> Planewalkers. *Most* groundlings would think you were mad if you told them 
> they could live on a tiny point of light in the sky. It must be a massive 
> culture shock for many of them when you show them that they are wrong and 
> that the point of light is another planet.
> 
> I would think that the only groundlings that would want to go into space are 
> the ones that have been contacted by spacefarers. And if they know some 
> spacefarers they can get access to wildspace or helms via the people they 
> know.
> 
> (It isn't just groundlings that are like this. 90 percent of people living 
> in wildspace also stay on whatever rocks they were born on. People that 
> travel on spelljammers are a tiny minority of the population of the spheres 
> they were born in. They are a tiny elite. Although many "Spacefarers" look 
> down on "Groundlings", most of them are no better - they just think they are 
> because they are arrogant. I think it is the Complete Spacefarers Handbook 
> that compares small asteroid communities to groundling villages.)

Most people just want to go on living their lives the way they
are, just a bit more comfortable, and with more certainty of a
comfortable old age. Risk and change are scary.

There will be wizards who want to find out "what is up there".

There will be bards who want to tell the tale of looking down on
the world from above.

There will be those who want to be explorers (even if (almost)
everyone calls then loonies).

And, there will be merchants who think there must be a way to
"make money out of what is up there".

Money + explorers = ...


> Anyway, I'll go into the actual process of creating a minor or major helm 
> but that is another email...
> 
> David Big Mac Shepheard
> easyInternet internet cafe
> London UK


-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/