Re: Alternative helm creation (major and minor helms)

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 07 Dec, David Shepheard wrote:
> >From: Dreamer <dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk>
> >Reply-To: Discussion list for the Spelljammer campaign setting              
> ><SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com>
> >To: SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com
> >Subject: [SPELLJAMMER] Alternative helm creation
> >Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 10:15:01 +0000
> 
> Assuming I haven't put you off of the idea with my other posts, here are 
> some thoughts on how to actually implement this.
> 
> >We are pretty clear, at least in AD&D terms, of how to get a
> >working Minor Helm and Major Helm, of the standard varieties, as
> >spells exist in the basic SJ rules. And, you just roll these into
> >your favourite enchantment system.
> 
> This is not as simple as you make it out to be. First lets have a look at 
> the item creation rules. I'll use the 3e rules.

Quite a few SJ DMs don't use 3e. I personally have doubts about
the 3e enchantment system - I don't like any system which uses
the mechanic of people 'burning' xp to make magic-items, so
presumably to restrict the supply. In particular to make items
for others, which a lot of NPC enchanters will be doing. I'm
pretty sure there must be a better mechanic.

But, apologies, this is almost certainly not the place to argue
this!

Original D&D (1974), "Men & Magic", pg. 6:

"Wizards and above may manufacture for their own use (or sale)
such items as potions, scrolls and just about anything else
magical. Costs are commensurate with the value of the item, as is
the amount of game time required to enchant it.

Item                      Cost
Scroll of Spells          100 Gold Pieces/Spell/Spell Level/Week
                          (a 5th level spell would require 500 GP
                          and 5 weeks.)
Potion of Healing         250 Gold Pieces + 1 week
Potion of Giant Strength  1,000 Gold Pieces + 4 weeks
Enchanting 20 Arrows      1,000 Gold Pieces + 4 weeks
Enchanting Armour to +1   2,000 Gold Pieces + 2 months
Wand of Cold              10,000 Gold Pieces + 6 months
X-Ray Vision Ring         50,000 Gold Pieces + 1 year"

So if you are a "Wizard", i.e. 11th level arcane magic-user, you
can make magic items.

The Spell Smith (and Alchemist) rules were designed to be
compatible with this, and have been used with AD&D, though they
are less suitable for the complex multi-function magic-items that
AD&D introduced.

http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/frpg/enchant/


Wizards are considered to be non-specialist enchanters. Pricing
on magic-items seems to come out right.

When you use these rules to check on the Arcane prices, compared
with the spell levels of the Helm spells, it looks very likely
that they have some way of cheating. Minor Helms come in at
250,000gp+. And, it's arguable that the CoAS spell levels given
for Helm spells are about one level too low!


> Lets use the Create Wonderous Item Feat as this seems to match
> the description of a spelljamming  helm best. Have a look at
> this URL:
> 
> http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/featsItc.html
> 
> Firstly I refer you to the scarey text: "Some wondrous items incur extra 
> costs in material components or XP, as noted in their descriptions." This is 
> the line that has been keeping the arcane in business. There is a secret 
> ingredient that needs to be added in order to create a permanant version of 
> the minor or major helm. I'll come back to this but first lets look at the 
> "easy" stuff:
> 
> 1) "Enchanting a wondrous item takes one day for each 1,000 gp in its 
> price."
> 
> >From memory the helm prices are 100,000 gp and 250,000 gp for minor and 
> major helms, so your wizard/cleric needs to spend 100 or 250 days to make 
> this. That is a really long time to be doing something without going off to 
> do other work or otherwise being interupted.
> 
> 2) "To enchant a wondrous item, you must spend 1/25 of the item’s price in 
> XP and use up raw materials costing half of this price."
> 
> So your wizard/cleric looses 4,000 or 10,000 XP and needs 50,000 or 125,000 
> gp of stuff before he starts. Forgetting the XP for a moment, as your 
> wizard/cleric can obviously afford to loose the points, that is a lot of 
> stuff to buy. Don't forget this isn't just a matter of paying half the cost 
> of a helm. Whatever this stuff is, it takes up room, it needs to be 
> transported to the place where you are going to make your helm. Some of it 
> could have a shelf life. There are logistics to think about.

Bags of Holding have their uses... As do preservation spells. If
making a Helm is _that_ important then all sort of resources,
including instant travel, will be brought to bear.


> 3) "These costs are in addition to those derived from the item’s base 
> price."
> 
> Don't forget that you *also* have to buy a chair that the magic is going to 
> be put into (because it is listed as a spell component). I would probably 
> rule that this chair needs to be of mastercrafted quality in order to 
> permanantly accept the magic. Anyone got an idea on the price of a nice 
> sturdy handmade chair?

Couple of hundred gold plus mastercraft premium at most, unless
you _insist_ on that gold leaf! [grin]


> But the real killer is that scarey sentence I mentioned before: "Some 
> wondrous items incur extra costs in material components or XP, as noted in 
> their descriptions." From memory the Spelljammer Campaign Setting 
> *specifically* states that these special components are unknown except to 
> the arcane.

I don't recall anything about that...

And, it is likely that there are a number of different ways of
doing Helm creation, with different materials - just look at all
the different sorts of non-magical engines!

Different rituals, different materials. Crystalised air, anyone?
The sigh of an unaware dragon caught in a bag woven from couatl
feathers? Fresh morning dew from the highest mountain in the
world? A bottled rainbow?

Those are the sort of things. Unearthly with the right sort of
ritual significance.

And, "Create Wonderous Item" doesn't talk about the sort of place
that the work has to be done in, a purified ritual workshop
probably of not insignificant value. And, the exact ritual that
will need to be devised, and maybe altered to fit in with
astrological requirements. Flavour to suit.


> So what do you think we can put in there to fill in the blanks? How about 
> this:
> 
> ***********
> 
> The missing secret component needed to create a major or minor helm as a 
> magic item is...
> 
> ....phlogiston!

No, I don't think so.

You have the bootstrap problem - how do you get there, and set up
your ritual enchantment area, and know that is where you need to
be, in the first place?

That is almost as bad as saying the first spelljamming Helm was
made as a result of the Trickster God getting the Craft God
really drunk on divine moonshine, one night, while looking at the
stars, and passing on the design for a Helm along with some
bottled phlogiston to a mortal crafter, next morning, just to see
what happened!

There would almost certainly have to be another, maybe really
inefficient and expensive way, of making a Helm that can enter
the phlogiston.

Don't forget hitching a ride on a creature that can naturally
spelljam. Blood of such a creature would likely be a usable
'secret' ingredient in Helm creation.


> ***********
> 
> If the would be helm must be continously bathed in phlogiston in order for 
> it to become a magic item, then the helm would need to stay in the flow for 
> 100 or 250 days. Because the flow can not be captured and brought inside a 
> sphere, the entire creation process would need to be done outside a crystal 
> sphere!
> 
> *That* would explain why the arcane have managed to keep the secret *and* 
> also make it possible but very difficult for anyone to make their own helms.
> 
> A wizard/cleric would need to be on a ship in the flow for 100 or 250 days 
> while creating a helm. Because he would be unable to spelljam without 
> interupting the process he would need an assistant to fly the ship for him. 
> He might also need a crew to defend him from any passing ships or creatures.

If Helm creation is a valuable enough process, and you could be
pretty sure that it would be, an obscure portal almost never
otherwise used would be utilised, and a serious guard force
employed.

On the down side, lots of research would be needed to get this
right in the first place. Almost certainly years, if not decades.


> Most ships only have 28 days of air, so he is going to have to find a way to 
> get over that obsticle. Food and water would also be a problem. I would 
> think that he would need a supply ship to ferry air, food and water from a 
> nearby sphere.

Not a problem with that level of magic. Create Air is a 1st level
priest spell (CoAS, pg. 21), and an item that will do this should
not be difficult. Create Food and Water are more difficult, but
still do-able. A supply ship is quite practical.


> Maybe the arcane have found some way to exist without needing to breath. 

A more advanced Necklace of Adaptation? Ioun stones?


> Perhaps there is an arcane archlich making helms for them and gaining enough 
> wealth to buy immortality from the gods.

The Arcane wouldn't be happy when he finally makes what he
considers to be enough money...

It seems more likely that the Arcane have combined a clever idea
with a crystal sphere that makes Helm making easy. Maybe one
where the primary saturates the whole sphere with magical energy,
so that stones often spontaneously talk? Spell casting just by
thinking a bit too hard about something could be nasty! [grin]

Don't have nightmares! [grin]

("Forbidden Planet")


> David "Big Mac" Shepheard
> easyInternet internet cafe
> London UK

-- 
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/