Re: Steampunk Jammer

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Fri 02 Sep, Scratch wrote:
> At 09:03 AM 8/22/2005, you wrote:
[snip]

> >Current name for this sub-class is "Moulder", but they still need
> >the Manikin Creation potions, and currently one of the few sources
> >of these is an Alchemist.
> >
> >I know there has been speculation on whether you could have a
> >manikin, which is designed to make Manikin Creation potions,
> >maybe using something the various Healing Skill special
> >abilities, letting them make healing potions.
> >
> >But, maybe that is a bit too much like manikin reproduction,
> >which is explicitely banned! [grin]
> >
> >(All manikin and homonculi are sterile. Getting this fixed has
> >been a long term game objective of a number of PC manikins.)
>
> I can see why, if they were allowed to reproduce, with all those neat
> abilities, you'd have quite a problem very quickly. Ever thought of
> what it would be like to have a group of these manikins run away and
> start their own colony on an asteroid or something? Maybe toss in
> some extra factors like the asteroid their on is in a crucial area of
> space for some reason or another? It might just end up being like a
> alchemical Waco!

There is no way that you can make a manikin, who is an Alchemist,
who is on creation capable of making a potion, which can make a
manikin with their own abilities.

If you pull all the levers in the Manikin Creation spec, and use
secrets rarely known, a Mark V+ Manikin might start as an 11th
level Alchemist, which means that they can make Manikin Creation
II potions, and are capable of creating up to Mark V Manikins,
even if they get the potion from elsewhere. So, to make a potion
that can reproduce themselves, they need to go up 7 levels, to
18th level Alchemist, and even if someone else provides them with
a Manikin Creation V+ potion, they would need to go up one level,
to 12th, to be able to use it.

This is not to say that a group of manikins that has existed for
several years, unsupervised, might not be getting very, very,
dangerous!

Yes, they can't _directly_ reproduce, but give them enough time,
and a suitable source of essences for their various abilities...


One reason for using manikins, rather than some other sort of
construct, or undead, in this setting, is that they can be made
so that they are as capable of creativity as normal creatures,
and are in some ways halfway between contructs and normal living
beings. Sympathy for the constructed! (Though, empathy and
sympathy seem generally lacking in PCs in most fantasy games.)


> >We have currently 'acquired' the High Priest of Tiamat, and so
> >far his god seems to be just stopping anything we do to him
> >killing him. So, we are keeping him deeply unconscious, and
> >trying to figure out what to do next, while 'waiting for the
> >other shoe to drop'.
>
> Do I even want to know how you "acquire" a priest? Specially a high
> priest of Tiamat? I imagine shes not pleased.

We used an Earth paladin, and lots of extreme force. Said priest
is a male half-orc alleged bard, called "One Eye", or "Melkor".
Major plot point!


> >I am familiar with a set of add-on rules for DnD called "Robot
> >Building for Fun, Pleasure, and Bankrupcy". Messing with
> >manikins/homonculi isn't that bad, but a lot of wealth can be
> >involved.
>
> That sounds terribly cool! lol

It depends who is paying the bills...


> > > >Carrying people around in shrunken form could be fun! In
> > > >particular if you are afraid the enemy have some way of detecting
> > > >instant travel, or, maybe even grabbing people in mid transit!
> > >
> > > Could replace jumbo jets! Just think about it you make a really big
> > > bird type manikin and build a miniature cabin for the tiny
> > > passengers. You could probably transport a fair amount of people that way.
> >
> >Maybe even application for spelljamming. "You encounter a small
> >ship, about row boat size. Using your spyglass, you see lots of
> >tiny passengers moving around on a number of decks. The name on
> >the front is 'Titanic'..."
>
> That would be great for short trips. But longer ones I imagine you'd
> need an actual helm. Wonder if helms can be shrunk?

Well, I expect you could build one from scratch of that size...

After all, if you can build ships in bottles...


> >You can't quite do that with the current manikin abilities, but
> >maybe you could do something with indefinite duration Diminution
> >potion, maybe in gas form, or something... Maybe produced by some
> >sort of alchemical Bottle...
>
> That sounds like some pretty high level stuff though.

Or, maybe a set of paired Gates, to a realm which, when you pass
through it one way or another, you are shrunk or enlarged?


> >Some thought has gone into issues of human rights for manikins -
> >if you have a manikin with emotions, creativity and mental
> >capacity comparable to human, not thinking about human rights is
> >a really bad idea. Homonculi are different, as they are really
> >just extensions of their master, and it is the master's right not
> >to have bits of them injured, or even cut off, that needs to be
> >considered.
>
> Ya, unless they're that bound to their creators that they would
> freely ignore their own situation. But I doubt every manikin would do that.

If they have no creativity or emotions, then they likely wont
care about their situation, otherwise...


> >You can also be pretty sure some religions will consider manikins
> >"monstrous abominations", and will do their best to wipe them
> >out. "True living things are created by the Gods, not by alchemy."
>
> Which also demonizes alchemy in general. You know, that's a good
> premise for my setting.

Might just be something else to go into the mix.

Always as DM have a few concealed cards to (further) confuse the
players! [grin]


> >You could have quite a well coordinated spelljamming crew, made
> >up from homonculi, maybe even micro-manikin homonculi. And, they
> >could get on with their work pretty independently, as long as
> >they had their own spacemanship skills, and didn't need to draw
> >these from their master (the bosun? the captain?).
>
> How micro? Lol I can just imagine manikins starting fights with
> dwarves and halfings.

Micro Manikins are 23 inch tall max, typically about 18 inch
tall. They also can't have base body hits of more than 9 (many
have 1 HP), and don't get CON bonuses if they get hit points from
a class, etc. But, if they have a Polymorph special ability, the
issue of their small size...


> >If you got into trouble with foul air, and they had Feign Death,
> >you could even put them under, so they weren't using up any more
> >air.
>
> Visiting your idea of combat manikins, it would be awesome to put a
> bunch of them under Feign Death and use them when you needed them,
> say when you're boarded? It would give pirates quite a shock. Since
> their not awake and consuming air you could have a bunch of them on
> the ship and deploy them when needed.

This is quite possible with all sorts of constructs, or undead,
like skeletons. Wood golems (scarecrows) can be quite fun! (See
the boring variety in the Alchemist spec, not the Revenloft, etc,
specials.) Of course, doing things like this can be horrendously
expensive, and might work best for a pirate hunting 'Q' ship.


> >If one or more of them get killed, though, the death shock damage
> >might be enough to kill their master, at which point you have
> >likely lost your entire crew.
>
> Not to state the obvious, but that would suck!

One good reason for having a tough master. If the master has even
very slow regen (I've seen 1 HP/ten mins) that keeps them from
dying, this avoids the problem to some extent. There are some
permanent potions which produce this effect.

I've also seen some nasty regen items, on occasion, that 'burn'
either 10xp or 100xp, of the wearer, per HP regenerated. Once
they become conscious again, even if still really badly wounded,
wearers of them may be insistent about taking the item off! I
once saw one of these items used for torture...

Then, there is the Rod of Consolation, which guarantees return to
life, but burns all your life force to do so, so you always come
back as 1st level with zero experience points...

But, cruel magic items aside!


> >You could create independent free-willed manikins to be crew, but
> >these would not be that different from normal crew, except you
> >get to customise them, and they have all sorts of interesting
> >abilities. Expense is a definate issue, as each will likely cost
> >you 10-50,000gp; really good ones could cost a lot more.
> >
> >The crew of a (really) rich merchant, maybe?
>
> Could be the latest thing for the nobles to have. "Muffy, you got a
> new ship with an old fashioned crew? Pshaw I got a new ship AND its
> own manikin crew!" I imagine you could toss the word loser into that quote.

Status and one-up-man-ship can get people to waste money in all
sorts of ridiculous ways!

Now, how about a merchant, who had a manikin butler with
Polymorph, who has died, and his wife is avoiding letting news of
his death get out, by having the bultler impersonate the
merchant! Maybe his is doing a better job than the original? [grin]


> >Not sure about that, but didn't the Furnace Golem used by the
> >Vodani function as some sort of Helm?
>
> I don't know. I can't, for the life of me, find the stats.

I've seen references to at least something on it being in the
"Monsterous Compendium, Spelljammer Appendix (MC7)".


> >The manikin just acts as the Helm, you still need helmsmen.
> >Though, it possible for a manikin to both be a Helm, and their
> >own helmsman.
> >
> >In a post a while ago, I suggested a pirate captain with a bird
> >which acted as his helmsman, or a monkey or a human, which acted
> >as their own Helm and helmsman.
>
> I was never too clear on how spelljammer ships are piloted by
> helmsmen when the helmsman isn't powering the helm. I have no idea if
> that makes sense, but I hope it does.

I think this depends on the sort of Helm. Some Helms are self-
powered, some are artifacts that don't need power.

If you are spelljamming, I would have thought that someone would
sensibly be keeping at least half an eye on the Helm.


> Sounds pretty creative. But you have to be sure you treat the pet
> well otherwise it could cause some problems!
[snip]

"Poly wants a Storm Giant!"

(Yes, that is a quote from play! [grin] )


> >Hunting space dragons for their blood, might make for an
> >interesting spelljamming scenario. Stealing their eggs? Captive
> >breeding program, anyone? [grin]
>
> That might get nasty XD
[snip]

Most things involving dragons can be fun!


> >Some DMs have gods powered by belief, see Terry Pratchett's
> >"Small Gods". Introduces all sorts of ideas about "stealing the
> >power of a god". Steam engines and Helms driven by power stolen
> >from foreign gods? [grin]
> >
> >If there is just one believer in the pink elephant afterlife, it
> >might be just a small field, with a small, single 'real' pink
> >elephant, and all the others are illusions.
> >
> >In the above comment, I was thinking more about how much the
> >meddling of the gods, and those in the afterlife, could affect
> >the real world of the living.
>
> Ya, makes for an interesting linchpin for a campaign. Maybe some sort
> of cult is going around believing that there are no gods and suddenly
> gods start disappearing? You'd have to work the kinks out of the
> idea, but it sounds like fun don't it?
[snip]

Lack of belief is unlikely to do anything, you would need
positive un-belief, if that makes sense. And, it's unlikely to do
anything unless you out number the true believers.

Going around smashing up shrines and temples, trying to get
religions made illegal due to them being 'irrational'...

Might weaken the powers of the gods, at least in some areas.


I would recommend having several linchpins for a campaign, some
of which the PCs will only find out after a lot of play, and some
careful investigation. False linchpins can be great fun!

--
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/