Re: Steampunk Jammer

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Mon 22 Aug, Scratch wrote:
> At 04:13 AM 8/10/2005, you wrote:
> >In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Tue 09 Aug, Scratch wrote:
> > > At 04:09 AM 8/4/2005, you wrote:
> > > >In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 03 Aug, Scratch wrote:
> >Having the homonculi fly around is one option, that could make
> >for all sorts of interesting gaming possibilities. Homonculi
> >really, really, don't like to get out of range of their Mind
> >Link, so if you move them around in an inactive state (say done
> >by the manikin 'special' Feign Death), they are going to work
> >really hard to try and get back to their master. If they die
> >while out of range the master doesn't feel the death shock, but,
> >that also means the master doesn't know what's happened to them.
>
> Hm, you know I didn't think of that. I totally forgot about the fact
> that homonculi have a bit of will of their own.

They've got a (crude) copy of their master's mind - though the
more intelligent ones might claim to have an improved copy of
their master's mind! [grin]


> >You can sort of connect homonculi together without involving an
> >alchemist, as a non-alchemist can be master to them. The original
> >rules were to allow alchemical creation of a sort of familiar for
> >a magic-user, but in theory almost anyone willing can be used as
> >a master. You can even use a free-willed manikin, once it has
> >gone up a couple of it's (most expensive) levels, and so is
> >independent enough to hang homonculi off it!
>
> That makes the entire "telegraph" idea a whole lot easier. The main
> station could have a free willed manikin and the other ones could
> have normal ones. That way you don't really have to go through the
> expense of paying someone to be a telephone of sorts.

There are likely to be _some_ operating costs. You will probably
have to feed them, give them somewhere to rest when off-shift,
and unless their minds are built to be dedicated to comms,
something to keep them from getting bored.

You might find it adds up to more than you'd pay a junior clerk!
[grin]


> >Even if you restrict homonculi so that only alchemists can be
> >their masters, junor alchemists could have homonculi made for
> >them by more senior alchemists.
> >
> >The other suggestion is an alchemist sub-class, which just deals
> >with Manikin Creation, and having homonculi linked to them.
>
> Good point.
>
> Kind of like a specialist mage, hu? That would prolly reduce the cost
> of making homonculi since its closer to mass production. Hm... wonder
> if its possible to have an alchemical conveyor belt for the purpose
> of making homonculi?

Current name for this sub-class is "Moulder", but they still need
the Manikin Creation potions, and currently one of the few sources
of these is an Alchemist.

I know there has been speculation on whether you could have a
manikin, which is designed to make Manikin Creation potions,
maybe using something the various Healing Skill special
abilities, letting them make healing potions.

But, maybe that is a bit too much like manikin reproduction,
which is explicitely banned! [grin]

(All manikin and homonculi are sterile. Getting this fixed has
been a long term game objective of a number of PC manikins.)


> > > >Of course, there are hazards for the comms operator, including
> > > >mental attacks on any of their homonculi, and the injury they
> > > >receive if any of their homonculi die. Being a communicator would
> > > >be an alternative to entering the priesthood for high Wisdom
> > > >characters, though it is not really fleshed out as a class.
> > >
> > > And imagine losing one of your alchemists to the enemy? Kind of brings new
> > > meaning to code breaking.
> >
> >Something like that happened in a recent game... The enemy turn
> >out to have stolen a clone sample of the most senior alchemist,
> >and used major magic to turn this into an independent, but
> >insane, evil clone. We think the clone is about the same level as
> >the original, 18th or so... Yes, we are worried!
>
> Ouch. Is moving to another continent and changing your names an option? :P

Bit late for that...

A better prospect, if we could somehow arrange it, might involve
the High Priestess of Dionchete (sp?), and some serious attempts
at Cure Insanity.

We have currently 'acquired' the High Priest of Tiamat, and so
far his god seems to be just stopping anything we do to him
killing him. So, we are keeping him deeply unconscious, and
trying to figure out what to do next, while 'waiting for the
other shoe to drop'.


> > > >Having at least one homonculus which has (Comms) Telepathy, and
> > > >hence acts as a universal translator, that the comms operator
> > > >could tap and make use of, might be a good idea. Useful if
> > > >dealing with peoples with different languages.
> > >
> > > The longer I talk to you the more I'm liking alchemists.
> >
> >It has been suggested, by some, that Alchemists, and the Manikin
> >Creation rules, may have been developed so that they can do too
> >wide a range of things. I am not sure about this, as I feel there
> >is still a definite limit on what they can do, based on their
> >style, but I can understand the argument.
> >
> >If they are useful to you, well, that's what this list is for, to
> >pass on useful stuff! [grin]
>
> Their definitely multipurpose. But I guess that depends on a lot of
> things like you said. The imagination being one of them. Practical
> costs probably being the other.

I am familiar with a set of add-on rules for DnD called "Robot
Building for Fun, Pleasure, and Bankrupcy". Messing with
manikins/homonculi isn't that bad, but a lot of wealth can be
involved.


> >Carrying people around in shrunken form could be fun! In
> >particular if you are afraid the enemy have some way of detecting
> >instant travel, or, maybe even grabbing people in mid transit!
>
> Could replace jumbo jets! Just think about it you make a really big
> bird type manikin and build a miniature cabin for the tiny
> passengers. You could probably transport a fair amount of people that way.

Maybe even application for spelljamming. "You encounter a small
ship, about row boat size. Using your spyglass, you see lots of
tiny passengers moving around on a number of decks. The name on
the front is 'Titanic'..."

You can't quite do that with the current manikin abilities, but
maybe you could do something with indefinite duration Diminution
potion, maybe in gas form, or something... Maybe produced by some
sort of alchemical Bottle...


> >You can build some really nasty combat homonculi, but if you feel
> >there is a significant risk of their dying, and you don't need to
> >be able to communicate with them via Mind Link, independent
> >manikins might be better. The various Immune to weapons specials
> >can be useful, as can Regeneration (particularly if you add Fire
> >Resistance [grin] ), and in a spelljamming setting Adaption
> >usefully removes the need for air.
>
> Reminds me of those Warmachine thingys in Eberon. Then you get into
> the realm of civil rights for creations once the wars are over and
> they start rebelling for the fight for civil rights. Could get pretty
> nasty. Imagine a crew of manikins taking over a spelljammer and
> holding a city under seige? Might create the need for a secret group
> of manikin killers who go around hunting rogues.

Some thought has gone into issues of human rights for manikins -
if you have a manikin with emotions, creativity and mental
capacity comparable to human, not thinking about human rights is
a really bad idea. Homonculi are different, as they are really
just extensions of their master, and it is the master's right not
to have bits of them injured, or even cut off, that needs to be
considered.

You can also be pretty sure some religions will consider manikins
"monstrous abominations", and will do their best to wipe them
out. "True living things are created by the Gods, not by alchemy."


> Sorry, I'm kinda drifting off the point. I wonder how effective they
> would be at manning a ship? I mean, do you really think they could be
> as good as a normal crew?

You could have quite a well coordinated spelljamming crew, made
up from homonculi, maybe even micro-manikin homonculi. And, they
could get on with their work pretty independently, as long as
they had their own spacemanship skills, and didn't need to draw
these from their master (the bosun? the captain?).

If you got into trouble with foul air, and they had Feign Death,
you could even put them under, so they weren't using up any more
air.

If one or more of them get killed, though, the death shock damage
might be enough to kill their master, at which point you have
likely lost your entire crew.

You could create independent free-willed manikins to be crew, but
these would not be that different from normal crew, except you
get to customise them, and they have all sorts of interesting
abilities. Expense is a definate issue, as each will likely cost
you 10-50,000gp; really good ones could cost a lot more.

The crew of a (really) rich merchant, maybe?


> >One alternative to steam-powered Helms would be to have a manikin
> >which can act as a (Minor) Helm itself, though this needs a high
> >Mark of special, and hence at least a 14th level Alchemist. The
> >manikin gets tired pretty quickly, though, and wouldn't normally
> >be good for more than 12hrs, then needing the same period of
> >rest, so you might want three, in 8hr shifts. A specially
> >designed manikin in an emergency might be good for 24hrs.
>
> Isn't there a golem that can do something similar and needs to be
> recharged using lightning spells or something?

Not sure about that, but didn't the Furnace Golem used by the
Vodani function as some sort of Helm?


> Interesting idea though. A few of those and you could relieve
> yourself of mages for manning the helm. Might be a good military
> innovation, frees up your mages for combat rather then manning the
> helm. These would be free willed manikins or would they be bound?
> Maybe to the captain, if they are? That way theres no chance for the
> crew to mutiny, because if you kill the captain you effectively drown
> the ship.

The manikin just acts as the Helm, you still need helmsmen.
Though, it possible for a manikin to both be a Helm, and their
own helmsman.

In a post a while ago, I suggested a pirate captain with a bird
which acted as his helmsman, or a monkey or a human, which acted
as their own Helm and helmsman.

(Incidentally, the specs for the birds were wrong, as they
implied they would gain experience, and become better helmsmen,
which homonculi don't. Their master might, and get better at
using them to run a Helm; they wouldn't.)

Your choice, as to whether you use bound homonculi, or free-
willed manikins as helmsmen or Helms. If the master of a helmsman
homonculi has spells, there is a pretty good chance that their
homomculi stitting in a Helm will suck all their spells, as well.

The captain might not want to be master of helmsman or Helm
homonculi, preferring to hire someone who does that
professionally, and is maybe the bosun or first mate. The captain
might be the one who did all the navigating (you could have a
manikin good at this), and dealt with port officials, etc.

I would have thought a mutiny, which left the captain drugged or
unconscious, and his homonculi threatened into working for the
mutineers, on the captain's continued good health, might happen.

Or, you might kill the captain, and his spirit ends up in a
monkey helmsman/Helm! Depends on how much is understood about
homonculi by the mutineers, or whether they realise at all, that
advanced alchemy is the spelljamming trick being used.


> >Also note that making a manikin that can act as a Helm in theory
> >needs blood from a creature that can naturally spelljam. Hunting
> >space dragons for their blood? [grin]
>
> I see the way for medieval endangered species acts. Lol

Hunting space dragons for their blood, might make for an
interesting spelljamming scenario. Stealing their eggs? Captive
breeding program, anyone? [grin]


> > > Or how much control the living have over the afterlife. Can you imagine a
> > > Spirit Guild specifically dedicated to giving your recently departed a
> > > raise in the afterlife? "Sure your grandpaw can get out of shoveling coal
> > > for the rest of his afterlife. But its gonna cost ya!" Kinda reminds me of
> > > the indulgences the catholic church had early in the medieval ages.
> >
> >Introduces some interesting relationships with the afterlife!
> >[grin]
>
> Doesn't it? I really have to write this up. Lol

Good luck! [grin]


> >The other question might be, how accurate do you want these
> >people's beliefs about the afterlife to be? Also, how much is
> >still a mystery to them. Then, there is the question of how much
> >those in the afterlife can affect the living, except indirectly
> >through things like priests (or maybe mediums).
>
> Well, I could operate on the principal that your beliefs affect your
> after life. So a man who doesn't believe in one just stops existing.
> Someone that thinks the afterlife is filled with pink elephants finds
> himself in the middle of a grassy field surrounded by pink elephants.
> Though that does make some problems for things like 'how the gods work'.

Some DMs have gods powered by belief, see Terry Pratchett's
"Small Gods". Introduces all sorts of ideas about "stealing the
power of a god". Steam engines and Helms driven by power stolen
from foreign gods? [grin]

If there is just one believer in the pink elephant afterlife, it
might be just a small field, with a small, single 'real' pink
elephant, and all the others are illusions.

In the above comment, I was thinking more about how much the
meddling of the gods, and those in the afterlife, could affect
the real world of the living.


> Maybe the nations religion could have been corrupted along the way
> and the 'mediums' that keep the belief going are doing it just for
> the money. I might be in a conspiratorial mood, but this makes for
> great secret societies dedicated to the preservation of the belief.
> Wandering priests from other countries suddenly end up dead all
> killed through unusual circumstances. Wonder how the gods would
> react to that.

One suspects they might not be very happy...

Holy war time!


> >Interesting! I will have to get back to my own campaign and
> >crystal sphere design work! [grin]
>
> Keep Spelljammer Alive! Viva la resistance! :P

Me not having any players at the moment might be an issue...


> >'Engineer' used in the RW to be someone who had some respect, and
> >who made things like trains work, or repaired things so they go
> >on working. If the cost of making and distributing things is high
> >in your campaign compared to the cost or repair, say due to being
> >based on cottage industry, rather than factory assembly line mass
> >production, repair should be a very important side of things.
> >
> >Knowing how to repair and operate things is, I guess, probably at
> >least a three year apprenticeship, unless it is highly
> >specialised. Knowing how to do it so it works well, is efficient,
> >and gives minimum trouble to people later, might be a bit harder!
> >[grin]
>
> I don't think I want to introduce much industrialisation yet. Maybe a
> few factories in large cities. So I imagine in the countryside
> repairwork could make a man rich!
>
> Isn't that how long an electricians apprenticeship is these days?
> Gotta keep the trains running on time after all. And once you start
> piloting airships and the like it gets kinda dangerous when your too
> slow at raising the ships altitude before you hit a mountain. Hehe,
> why do I suddenly see bumbling gnome conductors.
[snip]

"Smart people don't travel Gnome Airways."

--
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/