Re: SPELLJAMMER-L Digest - 7 Aug 2005 to 8 Aug 2005 (#2005-149)

In <URL:news:local.spelljam> on Wed 10 Aug, Charles Sykora wrote:
[snip]

> > Again, I am not sure I understand, but does this class allow
> > (limited) spell casting while also acting as a helmsman?
>
> Yes, it does.  One of the few things that always bothered my about SJ
> is that only magic classes could Spelljam.  So I fixed that, but now
> magic classes would be penalized by not being able to use spells, so I
> had to fix that too.  I tried to preserve the fatiguing nature of the
> original spelljamming, however...thus the reason for the new method of
> casting spells.

I am unsure about why it is a problem about needing to have a
magic class to spelljam, isn't it quite easy to acquire a level
in Wizard under 3e, which gets around the problem? And, if you
are stuck operating the helm, you miss most of the fun of ship-
to-ship combat! Isn't that enough of a penalty? [grin]

And, if you want non-magic classes to be able to helmsman,
provide methods like a mind-linked familiar, a magic item, or an
alchemical or extended spell treatment that lets them do it, at
some nasty cost like half their hit points, or functioning as
half their level, until they have had equivalent rest to a magic
user getting all their magic back after Helm duty.

Using a Helm is supposed to be very draining, and I would have
thought you would need to get very ingenious to avoid it. Like a
ritual that seals your magic away, then drawing the magic to run
the Helm from another source, like a specially enchanted magical
staff. Of course, you then have to _unseal_ your magic before you
use it... [grin]  Maybe while under hostile fire... [grin]


As for helms that don't fatigue people:-

I understood the whole idea behind spelljamming (from a 'within
the game' point of view, rather than that the GM wants a run a
campaign with it in) was that you were trying to have a permanent
magic item which did a 'Fly' spell effect on something as large
as a ship.

Reading between the lines, you could look at the various sorts of
Helm, and say that they are trying to get around having a
self-powered Helm, by feeding in power from some external source.
So, the magic that is fed into a Helm is its fuel. Presumably
having a magic item that needs an external fuel source to work
lowers the 'power' (spell level, difficulty, minimum enchanter
level, whatever) needed to make the item, and in some way its cost.

If you compare, say, an Invisibility spell (2nd) with Mass
Invisibility (7th) you are going from a spell which affects a
single creature to one big enough for a whole ship; +5 spell
levels. So, a Fly spell (3rd) to a Create Minor Helm spell (6th
arcane, 5th divine) is +3 spell levels. If this is a sensible
comparison (you decide if it is) maybe a spell needing to be
fueled is worth +2 spell levels - a very significant difference!

Using some enchantment rules that I have seen, you need to be
capable of three spell levels over just being able to cast the
spell, to turn it into a permanent magical enchantment, in a
permanent item. This means that you need to be capable of casting
9th level spells to be able to make a Minor Helm. I expect 3e
enchantment rules to differ, but those two spell level difference
between a fueled and an independent Helm, would still, I think,
make a lot of difference!


> > The style of magic is interesting, but I am not clear that it is
> > necessary or desirable to introduce a new class of magic use as
> > part of this Prestige Class. Why was this felt to be necessary?
>
> As I said, I wanted to preserve as much of the original SJ as possible,
> so when I opened up jamming to anyone who took the prestige class, I
> felt I needed something like this.

Under the original SJ, a first level magic caster was really
useful, as in a real emergency you could shove them into the
Helm. Some training would obviously be desirable, but an old ship
hand, without magic, might be able to stand next to them and
"show them the ropes".

If you want a similar style, couldn't you tell the players of 3e
characters who want to spelljam that they will need a level in
Wizard, or whatever? They wont be _good_, but it may be enough!


> > Would it be more reasonable to make this make use a class option
> > (if such a thing is possible) rather than the core of the class?
> > Maybe a talent those very skilled with a Helm tend to pick up,
> > which might conceivably be reached by other routes? I would have
> > thought the ability to use a Helm was the critical thing, which
> > those with arcane or divine magics from their other classes would
> > already have, not a new way of using magic?
>
> I may not have explained it very well, but under my concept, you would
> have to possess this prestige class to spelljam.

That is a major change from the original SJ, where a groundling
could be immediately useful in a SJ setting.

It sounds as though you are making spelljamming more restrictive,
not less, unless all characters come from a background where they
might get spelljamming training!

I would strongly advise that it be possible to spelljam without
this Prestige Class, maybe not well, but it should be possible.

Some sort of skill available outside this class might make you a
reasonable spelljammer.

You could say that you need this class to be one of the elite.


On the subject of your magic system, it looks interesting, and I
would have thought might also occur outside a spelljamming
setting. If you think this might be the case, it could do with a
(brief) write-up explaining this, and where you think it might
occur. In some sorts of rogue training? Among scouts or rangers?

If it only occurs in connection with Helms, I think you need at
least a brief explanation of the logic for this - e.g. a Helm is
needed to learn the correct collection and focusing of the
magical forces?


> > Again, my limited knowledge of 3e hampers me here, but would
> > adding perception modifiers to spotting things while sensing
> > through the body of the ship be a good idea? Maybe an improved
> > resistance to being injured when the structure of the ship is
> > damaged (which is what I assume Spelljamming Shock is partly
> > about)? Something to do with navigation or direction sense - a
> > 'spelljamming instinct'? Maybe the ability to ignore some loss to
> > maneuverability due to the ship being damaged - superior
> > piloting?
>
> Great ideas!  I'll roll them in when I revise it.

OK; these are the sorts of things that I would expect an elite
spelljammer to be capable of. Maybe something about precise
maneuvering while docking might be good as well.


Would some sort of hireling cost table be useful, which explains
what it costs to hire an elite helmsman? Or, say a master
helmsman and the three apprentices, who are the ones who run the
helm except in real emergencies? Characters without your Prestige
Class would likely want to know this!


> > Just a few ideas...
> >
> > Maybe if you listed some design ideas for this class, why you
> > built it the way you did, this might make your design choices
> > clearer? (I am not suggesting that these be added to the class,
> > just mentioned here on the list.)
>
> Hopefully, my remarks above clarify what I was trying to do, but let me
> know if there is something else I should consider.

Yes, that makes things a lot clearer - hopefully my further
remarks might be of use!


--
Dreamer
dreamer@??????.?????.??.uk
http://www.romsys.demon.co.uk/