Re: Places: Dragon Rock Map

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 20:25:25 -0000, David Shepheard
<david_shepheard@???????.com> wrote:

>Thanks for the correction. I didn't remember this. Maybe the "known"
asteroids in The
>Tears
>should be listed on BtM. (For those who can't be bothered to look they
are: Dragon Rock,
>The Cave, Journey's Legg, Eye of the Sky, The Citadel and an unnamed
castle).

btw, do we know how many asteroids selunes tears comprise?
i´d prefer "many, with as much interesting asteroids as the dm needs".
while such wording gives every dm lots of freedom, one still has to
determine an approximate number, because when a spelljammer approaches the
tears, all they have to do is to look at the asteroid belt and ask "about
how many rocks do i see?" to force the dm to show his colors.

what about the following:
"there are hundreds of asteroids, most of them without atmosphere. almost
all of those who are inhabitable are occupied, the majority are simple
farming asteroids catering to the needs of dragon rock or food merchants
supplying other non-groundling- communities. that makes the tears one of
the most-travelled areas of the sphere (for which we have to find a proper
name yet *grin*)."

>In real life, when two towns have the same name, one is often named after
the other. I
>believe that New Amsterdam (now New York) was settled by Dutch people. Two
alternative
>reasons for the name Dragon Rock being used for one of The Tears is that
it might have
>originally been a dragon lair or might have been settled by the Shou Lung.

i like the shou lung- idea. iirc, it thatotherguy wrote that kara-town is
one of the oldest parts of the city.



>I think Slade should have addressed this issue to stop people like me
jumping to the wrong
>conclusion when someone mentions Dragon Rock.

agreed. but than, he _should have_ addressed many other things as well, or
looked more carefully at existing lore...


>Hmmm. It *is* technically possible to have two ports in the same place.
For example a big
>river estuary could have a port on either bank. With both ports being
rivals.
>
>If you find that difficult to imagine, think of a giant river that is ten
miles across as
>it reaches the sea. There comes a point when you do think of the places as
far enough away
>from each other to work as different ports.

i don´t find you example difficult to imagine, but i don´t see a reason why
dragon rock should - after your logic - have more than two PORTS: one on
each side. well, there are reasons for a couple of additional ports: one
exclusive board for the government, the EIN might have its own (but they
might as well use the governments port instead of having to maintain their
own), the 12 merchant families (though i don´t see the competition between
them intense enough to account for 12 docks), perhaps some temples
of "wildspace-religions", major trading houses...

...but for most of them a simple dock should be enough. whenever more than
one ship is present, it would be a simple thing to rent one of the hundred
other docks and either (un-)load the cargo and transport it to the
warehouse or wait until the occupied dock is free again.

>Once you accept the idea, think of it on a smaller scale. West Berlin and
East Berlin were
>touching, but were run with different governments.

very good example, but it doesn´t apply to dragon rock. there are two sides
(which would account for 2 ports) but one government.

(...)
>So I suppose you could say that Slade *intended* Dragon Rock to be
hundreds of tiny ports
>that are all competing. With each port would having its own employees and
management.

i still think slade just messed up "port" and "dock"... ;o)

>However, I can't imagine that sort of thing *actually* working over any
period of time. If
>there *were* hundreds of rival organisations competing for trade on a 10
mile rock they
>wouldn't get much room for docks each. They would only be able to get a
small number of
>ships into their docks and when a ship with a lucrative cargo came into
the area, they
>would all want it to come to their port. I would think that at some point
someone would
>undercut their competitors to get more business, starting a price war.
>
>The docks with the least amount of reserve gold would be knocked out of
business first and
>would have to sell up to their competitors. Naturally, the people that
bought a bankrupt
>port would want to dig tunnels to join it to their own port, because a
larger port would
>be more efficient to run than two smaller ports. Eventually there would
only be a few
>ports left.

agreed. btw: it would be useful (if not essential!) to create list
of "potential port- owners" for the map...

>I could perhaps believe a number of ports in the 2-20 range, with each dock
>catering for different races, alignments or types of trade, because some
people might be
>more comfortable going to a port where pirates, neogi or illithids were
banned.
>
>For example, given the danger of smoke powder explosions you *could* have
a separate
>isolated dock where naked flames are banned and specialist dock hands are
trained to move
>cargos carefully. If there was a large explosion in that dock it would not
damage any
>other docks.

i was thinking along the lines of 20 ports, with still more small docks and
warehouses, each operated by small businessmen who lease it to whoever
wants to do business at the city, or has demand for store goods there.
there might well be another 30 to 50 docks and warehouses.


>There should be at *least* one group of adversaries in almost every
sphere. Pirates are
>one good enemy for players to fight, but I think that each sphere also
needs other
>organised bad groups like the Tenth Pit. These groups don't necessarily
need to have a
>major presence, but could instead be used to pull players out of their
home sphere to take
>the battle back to their enemy's headquarters.

so what are the major baddies in realmspace?
- the pirates with their headquarter in garden
- the 10th pit (?)
- ???

>I believe that these "parking places" are in the gaps between the
asteroids that make up
>Garden. These gaps are "far enough apart to allow sight between them." and
can be "as far
>as 100 yards apart" or "no closer than 100 feet apart." Slade then goes on
to say
>something that is quite important: "This allows many spelljamming ships to
pass between
>them if manoeuvred carefully."
>
>So any "town" built inside Garden would need to allow clearance for pirate
ships to
>squeeze through the narrow gap between the roves of houses and the next
asteroid.
>
>I would expect *permanent* inhabitants to dig houses and other buildings
into the ground
>so that it doesn't stop them getting their ships out in a hurry. However
you have already
>seen that this hasn't been done.
>
>My guess is that the pirates bring supplies with them and create mobile
camps in the 100
>yard wide sections of Garden's inside. Edible plants and water could be
collected from
>across Garden and brought to the camp. After a while things like latrines
would probably
>overwhelm an area, and I think that the pirates would probably move on to
the next area
>long before that happened. They might even clean up after them to avoid
signs that they
>had been in the area.
>
>A permanent settlement could easily be placed under siege by a navy, but
that can not be
>done with a temporary camp. If anyone tries to attack the pirates they can
split off and
>fly their ships in different directions. Loose their pursuers inside the
maze within
>Garden and then head out to space.

(...)

agreed, to all and everything. ...seems my mental picture of garden was a
little different from what was in the books. thanks for nudging me in the
right direction. ;o)


>Someone could for example kit up a ship as a mobile inn or brothel and
cater to the
>pirates in the centre of Garden. They would arrive with holds full of ale
and leave with
>looted gold. They would trade stolen goods for other things that the
pirates need.

i absolutely love the idea of the "brothel-jammer"! *rofl*
it instantly conjures the picture of a run-down wrack, painted in hilarious
colors (and therefore hidden VERY deep between the asteroids, perhaps
camouflaged by a illusion made permanent by a "grateful" wizard patron), an
obscene figurehead, pink sails and so on... :o)

>A large
>thieves guild, for example could set up a legal looking trading company to
handle goods
>stolen by pirates. While these goods might be spotted if taken back to
where they were
>stolen from, the Spelljammer universe is a big place and goods could be
fenced in a
>different sphere.
>
>A thieves guild could even pass intelligence back to the pirates to help
them ambush ships
>with expensive cargoes and few fighters. Pirates don't really make sense
in isolation.
>They need an entire support network.

some neat ideas about a spherewide operating thieves guild. we should
tackle that in a seperate thread.

>The moons Templar and Farworld are the only inhabited places close to
Garden. I suppose
>pirates could attack ships going there. I think that attacks near Templar
might attract
>attention of the 100 mages there and attacks near Farworld might attract
attention of the
>traders.

...perhaps the wizard who camouflaged the brothel-ship is a regular from
templar? ...perhaps most or all of them know about the pirates? they might
even have some sort of agreement with them: "you procure rare/illegal spell
components/paraphernalia for us and we supply you with magic".  that would
give the pirates enough magical backup to make them major baddies in the
sphere, and give both parties a substantial advantage.
...should be tackled in a separate thread.


>I don't think Abeir-Toril was related to our real world. I think it was
related to *lots*
>of other worlds. *All* of which have forgotten that it exists.

i disagree. for one, there are many "non-native" races on toril. think of
the planetouched, the thri-kreen, mindflayers, etc.

ed greenwood describes faerun as "littered with gates to other worlds"
(quoted from memory, probably worded different). i´m still looking for the
article that explained the term "FR" , i am sure i´ve read it somewhere.
elminster, khelben and lhaeral were visiting ed himself in his flat in
canada, chatting about "the realms"; ed used this as background for
articles with realms-lore.

>I agree that Torilspace would have been better than Realmspace. However,
what would have
>been even better, would have been to have had Bral like communities in all
three of these
>spheres that were so important to the spelljamming community that the
spheres were named
>after them.

agreed. but perhaps toril IS more important than we picture it? waterdeep,
calimport, the dock, the karaturian ports... all of them supply services to
spelljammers; waterdeep and calimport metropolitan cities where you can
trade almost everything (apart from magical spelljamming equipment of
course). both ports can be reached by a quick planethop. of course you
should do this with a ship that looks like a seagoing vessel, or you´d be
the attraction af the whole city...


>How about if Selune had been built up and everybody called the sphere
Selunespace. We
>could then say "By the way this groundling planet over there is called
Toril and that is
>where the Forgotten Realms campaign setting is based."
>
>After all if spacefarers don't really like groundlings why would they
bother to land on
>Toril? Why is Toril the most important planet in the sphere?

see above; i can imagine that toril IS quite important.

the other answer for why toril is the most important planet in the sphere
might be "because it´s the one with the most inhabitants.".


>I think that Garden *can* work as it is. Why change it when you can use
the hollow pirate
>base idea somewhere else? Garden already is a pirate haven as it is now.
It already does
>everything it needs to do and doesn't need to be interpreted "loosely".

agreed. i just had a different garden in mind and needed a little
correction... ;o)

>Slade uses the word planet *because* these former asteroids are now
permanently joined
>together by Yggsdrasil's Child. The fact that they have a singular name
(and no individual
>names) backs this up. Garden also has one common atmosphere (while its
moons are outside
>this atmosphere). The Shou Lung call Garden a liveworld. So they certainly
think it is one
>planet.

i found the description of planets in the concordance of arcane space
today. you´re right.