Re: Places: Dragon Rock Map

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From: "SUBSCRIBE REALMS-L tauster" <chefseehund@???.de>
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] Places: Dragon Rock Map

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"SUBSCRIBE REALMS-L tauster"

>>David Shepheard wrote:
>>
>>I wonder if you could submit this to BtM, so that it can be put on the Dragon Rock
>>section of the Garden page:
>>http://spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/Garden.html#Satellites.DragonRock

(This URL is wrong btw. Perhaps each Dragon Rock could mention that there is another place
with the same name in Realmspace.)

>no problem, if the final result is worth being put on the site. in fact,
>provided i like the final draft, i´d asked that myself. ;o) .but that might
>take some weeks, as i have several things in real life that keep me from
>writing (and finishing the piece about mirrorspace).

No need to rush. I just thought that if Static is going to go to the trouble of creating
BtM and people are going to go to the trouble of creating great content, the two should
probably be put together!
;-)

>> I'm confused now as this seems different from what you described.

> the confusion derives from the accessory itself, as there seem to be TWO
> asteroids named "dragon rock": one at the fringe of selunes tears (page
> 30

Sorry, that BtM URL should have been:
http://spelljammer.org/worlds/Realmspace/Toril.html#Satellites.TearsofSelune

Thanks for the correction. I didn't remember this. Maybe the "known" asteroids in The
Tears
should be listed on BtM. (For those who can't be bothered to look they are: Dragon Rock,
The Cave, Journey's Legg, Eye of the Sky, The Citadel and an unnamed castle).

> "Dragon Rock lies close to the edge of the tears, it´s ten-mile surface
>dedicated to trade. Hundreds of ports (1) allow ships to dock and conduct
>trade for a fee of 1s per ton. ...") and one at garden (p.46). no problem
>with that - names are not unique, many people or towns bear the same name
>as others, so why not in space?  that makes for wonderful confusions during
>play. :o)
>...but why do i have the suspicion that slade didn´t intend that? :o/

In real life, when two towns have the same name, one is often named after the other. I
believe that New Amsterdam (now New York) was settled by Dutch people. Two alternative
reasons for the name Dragon Rock being used for one of The Tears is that it might have
originally been a dragon lair or might have been settled by the Shou Lung.

I think that names *can* add an element of realism if used correctly. If you put a colony
of Tinker Gnomes somewhere called New Nevermind, it lets people know where they came from
without you having to say. But if names look like somebody just flipped open a dictionary
and picked two words, then an opportunity is being missed.

I think Slade should have addressed this issue to stop people like me jumping to the wrong
conclusion when someone mentions Dragon Rock.

>(1) hundreds of PORTS? shouldn´t that be DOCKS? for me, a port is the
>entirety of all docks and facilities, while a dock is where one (or maybe
>more than one) ship(s) can land. but than again i am no native english
>speaker, please correct me if i am wrong.

Hmmm. It *is* technically possible to have two ports in the same place. For example a big
river estuary could have a port on either bank. With both ports being rivals.

If you find that difficult to imagine, think of a giant river that is ten miles across as
it reaches the sea. There comes a point when you do think of the places as far enough away
from each other to work as different ports.

Once you accept the idea, think of it on a smaller scale. West Berlin and East Berlin were
touching, but were run with different governments. We could have a smaller river that
forms the border of two countries. Each side may maintain a port where their own river
boats trade goods with ocean going ships.

So I suppose you could say that Slade *intended* Dragon Rock to be hundreds of tiny ports
that are all competing. With each port would having its own employees and management.

However, I can't imagine that sort of thing *actually* working over any period of time. If
there *were* hundreds of rival organisations competing for trade on a 10 mile rock they
wouldn't get much room for docks each. They would only be able to get a small number of
ships into their docks and when a ship with a lucrative cargo came into the area, they
would all want it to come to their port. I would think that at some point someone would
undercut their competitors to get more business, starting a price war.

The docks with the least amount of reserve gold would be knocked out of business first and
would have to sell up to their competitors. Naturally, the people that bought a bankrupt
port would want to dig tunnels to join it to their own port, because a larger port would
be more efficient to run than two smaller ports. Eventually there would only be a few
ports left. I could perhaps believe a number of ports in the 2-20 range, with each dock
catering for different races, alignments or types of trade, because some people might be
more comfortable going to a port where pirates, neogi or illithids were banned.

For example, given the danger of smoke powder explosions you *could* have a separate
isolated dock where naked flames are banned and specialist dock hands are trained to move
cargos carefully. If there was a large explosion in that dock it would not damage any
other docks.

>>I get 63 hits on Google.

>i already tried google, though i haven´t checked _all_ links yet...

There are a about three duplications of the SJML archive in there. And I think that BtM
might be listed under its old URL as well as the new one. I'd guess that there were not
more than 30 useful links there.

>>Actually, as you want to use Bral in its own sphere, I think you have
>>highlighted a problem with Realmspace, Krynnspace and Greyspace.
>>Because Bral was given in the SJCS as a place to put in your own
>>sphere, these spheres don't really have their own version of
>>"Bral".
>>
>>Maybe we need a small spelljammer city for all of these spheres, so that
>>people who want yo use Bralspace/Spiralspace *do* have a replacement.

>in realmspace, we have dragon rock as the "good" asteroid town, and if you
>interprete the description about garden loosely, some of the asteroids at
>garden (NOT the one named "dragon rock"!) as a pirate haven, which, in my
>mind, is "needed" for making realmspace suitably unsafe for providing
>enough adventure. that means we would need at least one pirate town in
>torilspace.

There should be at *least* one group of adversaries in almost every sphere. Pirates are
one good enemy for players to fight, but I think that each sphere also needs other
organised bad groups like the Tenth Pit. These groups don't necessarily need to have a
major presence, but could instead be used to pull players out of their home sphere to take
the battle back to their enemy's headquarters.

>p.44 offers: "There is a number of places for spelljammers to park ships,
>but none are manmade (a). In fact, not a single location on this planet
>appears (b) designed especially for a ship from space to park comfortably.
>(...) There are several pirate dens within (c)the planet (d). The pirates
>maneuver their ships between the rocks to hide deep within (c) the
>asteroids that make up the center of the planet. (...)"

>(a) - in the sense that men did not _create_ them, but they might very well
>have altered that to suit their needs. i imagine a "town" that fits snugly
>in a jungle- or woodlike environment, in it´s flair distantly related to
>elven settlements elsewhere (but a lot more seedy and loud - just like a
>pirate haven is supposed to be).

I believe that these "parking places" are in the gaps between the asteroids that make up
Garden. These gaps are "far enough apart to allow sight between them." and can be "as far
as 100 yards apart" or "no closer than 100 feet apart." Slade then goes on to say
something that is quite important: "This allows many spelljamming ships to pass between
them if manoeuvred carefully."

So any "town" built inside Garden would need to allow clearance for pirate ships to
squeeze through the narrow gap between the roves of houses and the next asteroid.

I would expect *permanent* inhabitants to dig houses and other buildings into the ground
so that it doesn't stop them getting their ships out in a hurry. However you have already
seen that this hasn't been done.

My guess is that the pirates bring supplies with them and create mobile camps in the 100
yard wide sections of Garden's inside. Edible plants and water could be collected from
across Garden and brought to the camp. After a while things like latrines would probably
overwhelm an area, and I think that the pirates would probably move on to the next area
long before that happened. They might even clean up after them to avoid signs that they
had been in the area.

A permanent settlement could easily be placed under siege by a navy, but that can not be
done with a temporary camp. If anyone tries to attack the pirates they can split off and
fly their ships in different directions. Loose their pursuers inside the maze within
Garden and then head out to space.

>(b) not a single locations APPEARS to be designed, but that is very likely
>only camouflage, as the pirates don´t want to have obvious dock sites
>betray their presence. the sentence does not rule out HIDDEN facilities.

While it doesn't rule out hidden facilities, I don't think the pirates *need* hidden
facilities. They can take what they need on their ships. I see Garden as a place where the
pirates work from, rather than a place where they live. I think they would probably want
to travel to place like Bral used to be, so that they could visit inns and spend their ill
gotten gains.

There could even be non-pirating ships supplying the pirates of Garden.

Think of a gipsies, circuses or fun fairs. The first group can move a mobile town in and
out of an area, the second and third can do the same thing with entertainment facilities.

Someone could for example kit up a ship as a mobile inn or brothel and cater to the
pirates in the centre of Garden. They would arrive with holds full of ale and leave with
looted gold. They would trade stolen goods for other things that the pirates need. A large
thieves guild, for example could set up a legal looking trading company to handle goods
stolen by pirates. While these goods might be spotted if taken back to where they were
stolen from, the Spelljammer universe is a big place and goods could be fenced in a
different sphere.

A thieves guild could even pass intelligence back to the pirates to help them ambush ships
with expensive cargoes and few fighters. Pirates don't really make sense in isolation.
They need an entire support network.

>following that logic, they would attack ships at garden only when shure
>about their victory.

The moons Templar and Farworld are the only inhabited places close to Garden. I suppose
pirates could attack ships going there. I think that attacks near Templar might attract
attention of the 100 mages there and attacks near Farworld might attract attention of the
traders.

If I was a pirate I would probably pick a place on a trade route that was far enough away
from help that I had time to get away if reinforcements came. If I started to loose a
fight, I'd turn tail (probably abandoning any crew on the enemy ship) and head into the
depths of Garden to escape.

One of the important advantages of Garden to the pirates is that its depths are a maze and
only they have had time to study this maze and learn the route.

>...btw: why is it called REALMspace? i know it derives from the "forgotten
>realms", but that´s a name no one on faerun  or toril uses, as it comes
>from our real world (in which toril is a "forgotten realm"). shouldn´t the
>sphere be called "TORILspace", after it´s most important world?

I don't think Abeir-Toril was related to our real world. I think it was related to *lots*
of other worlds. *All* of which have forgotten that it exists.

However, this concept doesn't really work, when you then create the SJCS and tell
everybody that "known space" consists of Realmspace, Krynnspace and Greyspace.

Maybe they should call the campaign setting the Remembered Realms!!

;-)

I agree that Torilspace would have been better than Realmspace. However, what would have
been even better, would have been to have had Bral like communities in all three of these
spheres that were so important to the spelljamming community that the spheres were named
after them.

How about if Selune had been built up and everybody called the sphere Selunespace. We
could then say "By the way this groundling planet over there is called Toril and that is
where the Forgotten Realms campaign setting is based."

After all if spacefarers don't really like groundlings why would they bother to land on
Toril? Why is Toril the most important planet in the sphere?

>(c) the words "within" make me picture hollowed-out asteroids, maybe with
>their gravity plane on the inside of the cave walls (or is that too
>farfetched?)... iirc, there was a pirate town following that concept in the
>stories about the "eternal wanderer".

>From the description I've seen I think of a string bag full of marbles. If you were an ant
you could easily walk into one end of this bag and out of the other end. Everything inside
that string bag would be "within".

I think that Garden *can* work as it is. Why change it when you can use the hollow pirate
base idea somewhere else? Garden already is a pirate haven as it is now. It already does
everything it needs to do and doesn't need to be interpreted "loosely".

>(d) i don´t understand why slade constantly uses the word "planet" for
>garden. sure, yggdrasils child links all asteroids together, but does that
>make them _planet_?

Slade uses the word planet *because* these former asteroids are now permanently joined
together by Yggsdrasil's Child. The fact that they have a singular name (and no individual
names) backs this up. Garden also has one common atmosphere (while its moons are outside
this atmosphere). The Shou Lung call Garden a liveworld. So they certainly think it is one
planet.

In the real world people are happy to say that San Francisco is part of the USA, even
though it is on a different continent to the rest of the country.

If you want an example from Spelljammer look at the airworld Coliar (p12). It has hundreds
of earth and air islands floating inside it. If you argue that Garden is not one planet,
then you need to argue that Coliar is not one planet as well. But I think that the common
atmosphere thing is a large part of the argument that several related components are one
planet.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://virtualeclipse.aboho.com/