Re: Polygot Faiths & Planar Churches

> With 18 inner planes (including elemental, energy, para-elemental and
> quasi-elemental) and
> the Astral and Ethereal planes, that means that there could be 37
> Planar Churches
> wandering around wildspace.
>
> I'm actually a bit bugged by the inner planes and the ethereal plane
> because, I'm pretty
> sure these are local to each sphere. A cleric worshiping the Planar
> Church of Fire would
> not be worshiping the same fire in another sphere.

I'd never allow inner plane gods.  Or astral plane.  These just make
too little sense.  In SJ we're talking an area with no contact with any
inner plane (except perhaps the plane of void and maybe a sliver of the
ethereal) so there's no connection there for a church to be built on.

> I don't know about the Sumerian gods but clearly not all gods are
> racist like this. The
> Norse god Frey for example owns a ship called Skidbladnir that was
> given to him by the
> Dwarves. I can't see any reason why he wouldn't want to grant spells
> to a Dwarf that was a
> Norse polygot cleric or a cleric belonging to the Planar Church of
> Gladsheim. The 2nd
> Edition MotP also says that he has worshipers that are chaotic elven
> spirits. Clearly Frey
> is an equal opportunity god.

I think you should look at the Norse and the dwarves.  The dwarves the
Norse dealt with are far more mythic than the PC race.  More like
planar powers (you could say the Norse went to...the devils to get what
they have and you'd have a parallel).

> I don't agree that it makes *no* sense. What I *would* say is that
> TSR just threw this
> into Spelljammer without thinking about any rules. So on its own it
> can be interpreted
> lots of ways and that causes a *lot* of problems. I'm sure that it
> wouldn't have taken
> them long to have designed these faiths and explained exactly how
> they worked. Instead
> they tell you a tiny amount about a bunch of churches, without even
> telling you which gods
> are worshiped by each church. They don't even name them!

It does make no sense because it assumes all gods of one alignment (or
even area if we look at the astral or an inner plane) have somehow
related goals when they rarely do.  Pantheons make sense (since it
takes an entire pantheon to govern worshippers' lives) but "official"
planar churches don't.

> They then tell you that you should use priest of specific mythoi and
> not general clerics,
> which means that you need to have the rules that they haven't
> provided. If they really
> didn't want to go to the trouble of working out how these churches
> work, then it would
> have been easier to pull out all their sky gods, star gods, space
> gods and moon gods and
> said something like: "clerics of these gods have power in all
> wildspace but are limited to
> 2nd level spells on land".

I think that says everything that's need about how "good" the rule is.

> This isn't *always* linked to race as you seem to be suggesting.
> While many demi-human
> races do have their own pantheons they are usually also allowed to
> worship gods of the
> general pantheons. If you looked at one of the D&D campaign settings
> you would see a
> pantheon that was linked to various races living in one geographic
> area.

The only place I've seen that is Dragonlance, where the gods serve all
the races and bar are other deities of any sort.  Everywhere else, gods
and race are intrinsically linked, though a few gods of some pantheons
make minor exceptions.

> The racial pantheons are special cases.

Sure.  But then all pantheons are racial.  Some are human pantheons,
some are dwarven, etc.  The only non-racial pantheons are those like
Krynn where they're the only gods at all and the risen demons and
devils and such that were never linked to any race and aren't really a
pantheon in any case.  And even they often associate with a race to
gain followers (Yeenoghu, Baphomet, etc.).

 These gods protect their race
> but are not owned by
> it. If a dwarf or half-orc came along that fought to preserve the
> lives of the Elves then
> I'm sure that one of the Elven gods would consider making that
> character a cleric.

Why?  You can't have allies?  A dwarf's a dwarf, if he's an ally good,
but he's not an elf and he doesn't lead, represent, or inspire an
"elven" lifestyle.

> please the gods in the first place.) A half-orc whose other half was
> elf (instead of

Orcs and elves can't cross-breed.  In general most gods accept crosses
of their chosen race.

> I don't think you can say that it is ignorance because they
> specifically give the Planar
> Church of Olympus as an example: a plane that as you know has Greek
> and Elven gods in it.
> If they had given examples of planes that didn't contain racial gods
> then I would probably
> *agree* with you, but I'm pretty sure that they had some sort of
> intention here. It is
> just a shame that they didn't explain what it was.

It is ignorance.  Ignorance on their part.  As in an ignorant act, not
ignorant of what there is.  Though it certainly can support an argument
for the latter as well.

> I'd say that all clerics of the Planar Church of Olympus would have
> responsibilities
> towards, Elves, NPCs (of other races) with a Greek background and
> those protected by
> Nephtys. If a dead Elf that was born in Greece had their tomb robbed
> it would probably be
> a major issue for the church!

That's a very good example of why the planar churches, in official
form, are purely and competely broken.

> When it comes to motives, don't forget that both polygot priests and
> planar church priests
> are "illegal" on groundling worlds. Any clerics that land somewhere
> like Krynn or Toril
> get told to choose sides. With the exception of The Path and The Way,
> multi-god clerics
> are only tolerated in space.

If that's official it's also pretty damn ignorant.  I hit atmosphere so
I have to change my religion because the gods of the plane I worship
have some sort of pact that only applies away from planets?  Or perhaps
just planets that are well detailed settings in their own right...

 I think the gods look on the clerics of
> these two types of
> churches in a similar way that real world companies look at casual
> staff that come from
> temping agencies.

Then you have a very interesting view of the gods.  Temp clerics, heh.
Of ocurse it fits with 3e where anybody can become a cleric...

> The polygot churches and the planar churches are all filled with
> clerics that are not
> totally dedicated to any god. A god knows that the polygots and
> planar church clerics that
> worship them are loyal to them, but they also know that that loyalty
> is split among other
> gods. But in space, the gods are so short of worshipers and clerics
> that they *have* to
> put up with this second class form of worship. They have to either
> accept these
> "time-share clerics" or not have any clerics in space.

For a much more interesting method see my posts on the elven pantheon
in space.  It also shows why there is no such "requirement".  People
aren't going to turn from the gods just because they hit the stars.
The pantheonic churches make sense because they serve the needs of the
people (in other words, filling the same societal role the pantheon in
general does) but the planar churches, as written, are pure ignorance.

> On to your example of a gnoll worshiping the plane where Lolth lives
> and then warring
> against drow, don't forget that a cleric that claims to worship a god
> should be furthering
> their goals (or at least not hindering them). If this gnoll claims to
> serve the Abyss then
> he should only be attacking people that are not under the protection
> of *any* of its gods.
> As far as I can see this gnoll is a heretic.

Really?  So because Yeenoghu is in the Abyss and he and Lolth don't
always get along this gnoll has to stay out of their conflicts?
Because gee whiz, the gods would hate to grant spells to clerics so
they could actually do their will...

> How would Lolth react if a drow that was a polygot cleric of the drow
> pantheon started to
> kill her worshipers? And how would she react if a cleric of her own
> church started to kill
> her other worshipers? I'm sure she would attack the drow just as fast
> as she would attack
> the gnoll.

Lolth has her personally dedicated clergy kill each other all the time.
 But they do it in her name and while giving her power and supporting
her causes, not the cause of a bunch of Yeenoghu followers.

> The way I see it clerics of the many planar churches and polygot
> faiths would constantly
> be carrying out various rituals and rites and would have to walk a
> very fine line to
> ensure that they treated all of their gods equally.

And they fail if they do so.  Every time.

> The benefit of the Planar Church of the Abyss to a goddess like Lolth
> is that she can use
> the church to help spacefaring drow to enter new crystal spheres
> where she doesn't yet
> have access.

And all those other demon lords are just so nice they want to grant her
followers spells...  Instead she's smart enough to teach her clerics
contact home power before they leave the sphere they originated in.

 If these drow manage to conquer entire worlds then they
> proper Lolth clerics
> will arrive (along with other drow clerics) and Lolth will be able to
> take over from that
> planar church on the planet.

Only she can't because those drow don't just automatically convert to
her.  They worship the Abyss and all its powers and no power except
Lolth wants to see any of them convert to her.  So instead they wipe
her pansy clerics out when they arrive without any spells because the
only way they could gain spells would be to stop worshipping her and
turn to all the demon lords and deities of the Abyss, powers that don't
like Lolth.

> If she has to give spells to a few gnolls and other creature in order
> to help her drow
> conquer the universe then I'm sure that is a small price to her.
> Especially when
> problematic worshipers, like your gnoll that fights drow, can
> probably be safely killed
> without breaking *her* part of the deal.

And she wouldn't break it why?  She's chaotic evil.  She could care
less.  She'd break the deal just on a whim.  Or to cut off all those
worshippers in spheres only she has access to from the other Abyssal
powers so they can't gain any power from them.  Then she offers them
the simple choice:  convert to me personally to retain power or die by
the hands of those who did.  And the same with every other Abyssal
power.  No, no Abyssals would ever agree to the deal in the first
place, they don't cooperate, that's why they're in the Abyss.

> Clerics can already worship gods who have alignments that are
> different to them, although
> there *are* usually some sort of restrictions. I can't actually find
> a Lawful Evil Greek
> goddess that lives in Olympus but if there was one I doubt she would
> treat an Elf with any
> more or less respect than a human.

Zeus's wife is LE (can't think of her name, ATM).  Many other Greek
powers have very varied alignments.  If you look, it won't take you
long.

> What you have pointed out here as a potential problem with Planar
> Clerics actually has an
> example in a Forgotten Realms deity. There is a Chaotic Neutral god
> called Uthgar in the
> Faerun Pantheon, who's clerics gain spells via 11 beast totems
> spirits. Each beast totem
> has different alignment restrictions and Uthgar will give spells to
> some Lawful clerics
> (as well as clerics of every other alignment).

You should look at the Shaman accessory if you want to know how Uthgar
functions.  Uthgar isn't really a god in the way you mean, he delivers
no power.  Instead he tamed the beast gods and they grant power and are
the actual "gods".

> Lets instead turn your question on its head. If a Chaotic Good Elven
> cleric was a member
> of the Planar Church of Olympus and was in a sphere where an evil
> deity was willing to
> grant them spells, would they want to receive them? Does casting a
> spell granted from an
> evil source count as an evil act? Or is a characters deeds based on
> merit.

Why turn it on its head?  The real question is still would the evil
deity grant it?  According to the rules you quote, yes, always.  And
that is obviously illogical.  So instead of trying to avoid the point,
address it.

> Moving onto the "ideals of the plane" I'd have to say that each plane
> is intended to be a
> diverse place filled with gods of several alignments.

Then you are so out of whack compared to the ["Great Wheel"] commology
there's no use having a discussion.  I will now retire as I laugh at
diverse alignments in the Abyss and Hell respectively.




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