Re: Polygot Faiths & Planar Churches

From: "Thatotherguy" <spellj@??????????.com>

> "Pantheonic god" is a typo on my part.  A careful reading will show I
> meant pantheonic cleric (I'd allow shamans, crusaders, mystics, and
> monks as well, at least for some pantheons).  Thank you for catching
> that. :)

Other spellcasters for some pantheons would make a lot of sense. I think that worshipers
of the Celtic pantheon would be able to become druids. Decisions would need to be made on
a case by case basis.

> > This can be compared with what the Concordance has to say about the
> > Planar Churches on
> > page 24:
> >
> > *****************
> > PLANAR CHURCHES:
> >
> > A fractious merging of both the Path and the Polygots, the planar
> > priests respect and
> > venerate *all* the powers of a particular inner or outer plane. A
> > planar priest venerates
> > the Seven Heavens and *all* the Powers within regardless of
> > portfolio, position, or
> > attributes. A planar priest of Arvandor/Olympus would venerate both
> > the Greek and elvish
> > mythoi which live in that plane.
> > *****************
> >
> > The *stress* in the above quotes is TSRs, not mine.
> >
> > As you can see from this your statement that a planar cleric "serves
> > no deity/ies" is
> > wrong. The planar cleric serves *all* the gods on one inner or outer
> > plane.
> >
> > Both these clerics do the same thing: worship more than one god
> > (something that is
> > normally taboo in a groundling campaign). The difference between them
> > is their "shopping
> > list" of gods. The planar cleric looks at who lives in his chosen
> > plane and prays to them
> > and the polygot priest picks a pantheon from a culture they like and
> > prays to them.
>
> To catch your typo, that's "both these *types* of clerics", there are
> more than one of each, after all.

I did say that there were 17 outer plane churches somewhere else, but this slipped
through. Thanks for clarifying it.

:-)

With 18 inner planes (including elemental, energy, para-elemental and quasi-elemental) and
the Astral and Ethereal planes, that means that there could be 37 Planar Churches
wandering around wildspace.

I'm actually a bit bugged by the inner planes and the ethereal plane because, I'm pretty
sure these are local to each sphere. A cleric worshiping the Planar Church of Fire would
not be worshiping the same fire in another sphere.

>  I don't disagree that that is what
> TSR wrote, I disagree that it makes sense.  Why would a Sumerian god
> grant spells to a...dwarf (the Sumerian pantheon is clearly noted as
> not allowing its priests to interact with nonhumans, see 1st Ed Legends
> and Lore)?

Damn, they've taken the Sumarian gods out of the second edition. Bah! Humbug! The 3rd
edition (Deities & Demigods) had even less gods in it. If they ever do a 4th edition it
will probably have one pantheon in it!

;-)

I don't know about the Sumerian gods but clearly not all gods are racist like this. The
Norse god Frey for example owns a ship called Skidbladnir that was given to him by the
Dwarves. I can't see any reason why he wouldn't want to grant spells to a Dwarf that was a
Norse polygot cleric or a cleric belonging to the Planar Church of Gladsheim. The 2nd
Edition MotP also says that he has worshipers that are chaotic elven spirits. Clearly Frey
is an equal opportunity god.

;-)

I don't agree that it makes *no* sense. What I *would* say is that TSR just threw this
into Spelljammer without thinking about any rules. So on its own it can be interpreted
lots of ways and that causes a *lot* of problems. I'm sure that it wouldn't have taken
them long to have designed these faiths and explained exactly how they worked. Instead
they tell you a tiny amount about a bunch of churches, without even telling you which gods
are worshiped by each church. They don't even name them!

:-)

They then tell you that you should use priest of specific mythoi and not general clerics,
which means that you need to have the rules that they haven't provided. If they really
didn't want to go to the trouble of working out how these churches work, then it would
have been easier to pull out all their sky gods, star gods, space gods and moon gods and
said something like: "clerics of these gods have power in all wildspace but are limited to
2nd level spells on land".

> Why would an elven god grant spells to a dwarf?  or a
> half-orc?  In short, TSR's definition is pure ignorance based upon all
> their other portayal of the gods.  The pantheonic cleric watches over
> servants of an entire pantheon, which is linked to race and the joint
> motives of the pantheon.

This isn't *always* linked to race as you seem to be suggesting. While many demi-human
races do have their own pantheons they are usually also allowed to worship gods of the
general pantheons. If you looked at one of the D&D campaign settings you would see a
pantheon that was linked to various races living in one geographic area.

The racial pantheons are special cases. These gods protect their race but are not owned by
it. If a dwarf or half-orc came along that fought to preserve the lives of the Elves then
I'm sure that one of the Elven gods would consider making that character a cleric.
(Although I can't see a dwarf or half-orc being dedicated enough to the Elven race to
please the gods in the first place.) A half-orc whose other half was elf (instead of
human) could certainly have a background that would allow them to qualify as a loyal
worshiper, as could a member of another race that was brought up by Elven foster parents.

I don't think you can say that it is ignorance because they specifically give the Planar
Church of Olympus as an example: a plane that as you know has Greek and Elven gods in it.
If they had given examples of planes that didn't contain racial gods then I would probably
*agree* with you, but I'm pretty sure that they had some sort of intention here. It is
just a shame that they didn't explain what it was.

I'd say that all clerics of the Planar Church of Olympus would have responsibilities
towards, Elves, NPCs (of other races) with a Greek background and those protected by
Nephtys. If a dead Elf that was born in Greece had their tomb robbed it would probably be
a major issue for the church!

;-)

>  The motives of the powers of the Abyss (say
> Orcus and Kiaransalee and Lolth, all Abyssal powers who are at odds
> with each other) are entirely different.  Is Lolth going to grant
> spells to gnolls warring with drow who worship her by name?  Not a
> blooming chance in any of the lower planes.

When it comes to motives, don't forget that both polygot priests and planar church priests
are "illegal" on groundling worlds. Any clerics that land somewhere like Krynn or Toril
get told to choose sides. With the exception of The Path and The Way, multi-god clerics
are only tolerated in space. I think the gods look on the clerics of these two types of
churches in a similar way that real world companies look at casual staff that come from
temping agencies.

The polygot churches and the planar churches are all filled with clerics that are not
totally dedicated to any god. A god knows that the polygots and planar church clerics that
worship them are loyal to them, but they also know that that loyalty is split among other
gods. But in space, the gods are so short of worshipers and clerics that they *have* to
put up with this second class form of worship. They have to either accept these
"time-share clerics" or not have any clerics in space.

On to your example of a gnoll worshiping the plane where Lolth lives and then warring
against drow, don't forget that a cleric that claims to worship a god should be furthering
their goals (or at least not hindering them). If this gnoll claims to serve the Abyss then
he should only be attacking people that are not under the protection of *any* of its gods.
As far as I can see this gnoll is a heretic.

How would Lolth react if a drow that was a polygot cleric of the drow pantheon started to
kill her worshipers? And how would she react if a cleric of her own church started to kill
her other worshipers? I'm sure she would attack the drow just as fast as she would attack
the gnoll.

The way I see it clerics of the many planar churches and polygot faiths would constantly
be carrying out various rituals and rites and would have to walk a very fine line to
ensure that they treated all of their gods equally.

The benefit of the Planar Church of the Abyss to a goddess like Lolth is that she can use
the church to help spacefaring drow to enter new crystal spheres where she doesn't yet
have access. If these drow manage to conquer entire worlds then they proper Lolth clerics
will arrive (along with other drow clerics) and Lolth will be able to take over from that
planar church on the planet.

If she has to give spells to a few gnolls and other creature in order to help her drow
conquer the universe then I'm sure that is a small price to her. Especially when
problematic worshipers, like your gnoll that fights drow, can probably be safely killed
without breaking *her* part of the deal.

> Also, many planes have
> gods of different alignments and cross purposes on the same plane
> because some pantheons dwell together.  Will a LE goddess of the Greeks
> grant spells to some pathetic CG elf?  I doubt it.  It makes far more
> sense that the ideals of the plane itself are what's venerated and that
> that's how the power is gained (much like 3e druids can "worship
> nature" and paladins can "serve LG" without having a deity).  It's then
> up to the DM if the planar priest actually gains any spells from some
> god/god-level power on the plane or manages to access the plane
> directly (just as the powers of a demon derive directly from the Abyss
> itself without intervening powers/deities).

Clerics can already worship gods who have alignments that are different to them, although
there *are* usually some sort of restrictions. I can't actually find a Lawful Evil Greek
goddess that lives in Olympus but if there was one I doubt she would treat an Elf with any
more or less respect than a human.

What you have pointed out here as a potential problem with Planar Clerics actually has an
example in a Forgotten Realms deity. There is a Chaotic Neutral god called Uthgar in the
Faerun Pantheon, who's clerics gain spells via 11 beast totems spirits. Each beast totem
has different alignment restrictions and Uthgar will give spells to some Lawful clerics
(as well as clerics of every other alignment).

Lets instead turn your question on its head. If a Chaotic Good Elven cleric was a member
of the Planar Church of Olympus and was in a sphere where an evil deity was willing to
grant them spells, would they want to receive them? Does casting a spell granted from an
evil source count as an evil act? Or is a characters deeds based on merit.

Moving onto the "ideals of the plane" I'd have to say that each plane is intended to be a
diverse place filled with gods of several alignments. If you want to make a church that
has no ambiguities you might as well not bother with the Planar Church of Olympus and
instead have the Alignment Church of Chaotic Good. I think that there should be conflict
in the planes and therefore conflicts of interest in the planar churches. That is what
forces their clerics to stay in wildspace where they
can avoid getting in between two gods. If you take away the requirement to venerate *all*
the gods on a plane then you get two fundamental problems:

1) It becomes impossible to calculate when a cleric can and can't gains spells in a new
sphere (because all spheres are equally connected to the outer planes and their own inner
planes) and
2) There is no incentive for clerics to stay off of planets (because they no longer have
gods to answer to when they go there).

I think it is a lot better to sort out these problems (on a pantheon by pantheon and plane
by plane basis) than to throw the idea out and replace it with another.

David "Big Mac" Shepheard
Virtual Eclipse Role Playing Club
http://uk.groups.yahoo.com/group/virtualeclipselrp/links/d20_system_001071937434/Spelljammer_001071430476
http://virtualeclipse.aboho.com/