Re: Ogre Mammoth

<<<<<<<Let me make it clear for you here then, I prefer to apply logic.
Something the designers rarely did.>>>>>>

That's nice and all, but it is in the rules and that is what he was talking
about.

 Goblins are more
> organized than ogres (LE vs. CE). Kobolds are more organized than
> ogres
> (LE vs. CE). Goblins and kobolds are both *much* more capable of
> making
> it into space on their own than ogres.

<<<<<How does organization have anything at all to do with getting into
space? >>>

Your kidding, right? How are you going to get into space with out any sort
of organization? Logically you can't. Remeber you do prefer to apply logic.

 <<<<<<In fact, it hinders it.  A lawful society hinders its leaders
with tradition, a chaotic one can be changed at the leader's whim.
(Ogre chief, who dominates the entire tribe, says, "We no longer hunt
dwarfs and orcs in mountains, we get on this flying firewood and go
very high where we all get sick like on high cliff.  Now go or me make
mug of your skull!")>>>>>


In a chaotic society nothing would get done let alone building space craft.
You have to have some sort of organization to supply the resources to build
the ships.

<<<<<And, as shown, this is a fallacy.  I think tacticians call it
"underestimating the enemy".  It's generally fatal in battle.>>>

The thing is that the Ogre as written in the Monster Manuel would not have
been able to get into space by themselves. This can also apply to other
races. Now if you update the entries to apply to SJ then I can see them
getting into space on their own. Now if we keep the Ogre as written then it
makes a lot of Logical sense that the Ogre Magi brought the Ogre into space.

And why is it that the Ogre Magi is rare if they are their own race. I mean
it would make sense that they have their own spacefaring nation. Just
because they are rare on FR and Greyhawk does not mean they have to be rare
everywhere.

> Of course. Ogre magi aren't stupid. With a chaotic race like ogres,
> that's the best way to rule.

As I've shown, it's the worst way to rule.  Chaotic alignments are
individual freedom.  This would work well with lawful races, ogres must
be dominated through strength.

> > What manipulate?  Ogres follow the strongest individual and ogre
> magi
> > are stronger than ogres.  They are equivalent to chiefs without
> using
> > their magic, add that in and the ogre loses, every time.
> Yes, but if they do things that way they end up constantly having to
> fight the other ogres to stay in command. They'll win, but that's
> clearly an annoyance that they can do without.

<<<<<No, ogres aren't suicidal (though how they run their mammoths is).
When the biggest baddest guy around is on top you try to become number
two, not throw your life away when you have no chance to win.>>>

Who said that they would have no chance at all. If you wanted to eliminate
someone whom your trying to take power from, do you confront them head on or
arrange an "accident"
If you do attempt to take on the Ogre Mage head on then the Ogre would
probably recruit some friends to help him.