Fighters

> The standard SJ does list a few fighter types but does not go into
> detail as
> to how they move around without helms. They are "non-magical Engines"
> what
> ever that means. So it is not hard to come up with a fighter type
> helm that
> can only power ships under 10 tons. This list has had this discussion
> before. Now assuming that there are fighters type ship in the
> campaign
> (whether they have magical or "non-magical helms" Flitters) They can
> bring
> down a ship this large even with the ship armed with light weapons.
> I'm not
> saying that there will be no losses on the fighter's side. Look at
> WW2 in
> the Pacific fighters type craft (this includes dive bombers, torpedo
> bombers, etc) took on battleship. And the armament on these
> battleships were
> extensive against small aircraft.
> I'm not saying that taking down a 500 ton ship is going to be easy
> but it
> can be done.

The infamous fighter dilemma of the real world.  What makes real world
fighters deadly is a mix of things (some apply to both land and sea but
I'll stick with navies since this is SJ).  First, explosive weapons.
Fighters do not take out large ships with bullets, they take them out
with bombs, torpedoes, and explosive rockets.  Many accounts of what
happens when said weapons do not go Boom! can be found in WWII annals
(namely the ship is fine).  Next, we have sinking.  SJ does not have
this problem.  To destroy a terrestrial naval vessel you simply put
holes in it at or below the water line and let the ocean and time do
the work for you.  In SJ, this does not occur.  And, of course, we have
the defenses of large ships.  In the real world they have heavy armor
to stop their being holed (and sinking).  In SJ ships have to have
their superstructures destroyed so they break apart.  Ballista bolts
can fly through the walls all they want but as already noted the holes
do them no good.  The bolts have to actually split structural supports.
 Fire and magazines.  Fire is a very real threat on modern and ancient
RW vessels.  Ancient ships were wood and modern ones have explosive
magazines and electronics that are susceptible to fire (in the modern
world you don't have to sink a ship to make it useless, in SJ you have
to destroy it or destroy the helm and ensure no one who can cast create
helm is alive).  Explosive magazines also mean even single bullets can
be deadly.  In SJ few ships will have explosive anything (especially on
the scale of a magazine) and a metal or stone ship without sails (did
someone say dwarven citadel?) doesn't have to worry about fire as a
threat to the ship itself (to the air, yes, but with no fuel the fire
will go out).

One last historical/RW note.  Small ships are generally not effective
warcraft except as fireboats (a concept SJ has) in the real world.
That is before the development of good torpedoes and mines.  Fighters
are airborne for a reason.  Even in modern naval warfare thay lack a
true, common, surface equivalent.  The point is, SJ is about ships that
already fly, so everyone's now on the same setting.

Now, let's look at the mechanics of SJ which combine with the rules
above to make fighters even less feasible in SJ.  AR, THAC0, and HPs,
primarily.  Weapon THAC0s are all the same.  That is, 5th level fighter
uses and 1st level wizard uses and both have the same THAC0 (assuming
proficiency for those who worry about such with large weapons).  It
also doesn't matter what platform the thing is on, as long as you're in
its arc of fire you're equally likely to be hit.  In real life planes
are more accurate than gun turrets (defenses) because you aim the
entire plane.  In WWI they figured that one out and it gives fighters
an advantage over bombers (capital ships of the sky) and ships fending
them off.  HPs are based on size.  One hit will take out most fighters.
 Take the blade.  It can't ram anything over 20 tons (at which point it
crashes instead) and most any hit that does HP damage will destroy it.
Sure, you might have ferried 10 of them to the fight but you'd have
probably been better off with a 25 ton cargo barge loaded with 10 large
weapons.  Because your average hit will take one out completely while
all ten of those weapons (barring a critical hit) will still be
operating (and maneuverable if you've invested in propulsion) until the
entire barge is gone.  Also those fighters can't keep the ship from
jumping to SJ speed and fleeing once their capital ship is gone (for
that you need a 10 ton ship).  Now they are abandoned and probably dead
(unless you actually invested in full helms for each one their air will
run out before they can get anywhere).  AR is not balanced.  Quite
simply AD&D and 3e have little accounting for size vs. AR/AC.  Also AC
is equivalent to AR as in, directly proportional.  Ships two hexes
apart (500-1500 yards) allow individuals on deck to be shot at with the
same chance to hit as their ship (if they have AC = to the ship's AR).
Also the maeuverability, speed, and size of a ship do not seem to
affect it's AR.  So a small fighter, even if it's fast (say SR 5 in a
combat with SR 2 capital ships), still has the same chance to be hit as
a large, immobile ship with the same AR (let's assume slightly mobile
as some DMs may say they apply standard immobile penalties to AR as
they do to AC).  In fact, that large ship probably has a better AR than
the fighter as it is better armored.  In some ways this is reasonable,
for instance it's much easier to hit the structure of a fighter than to
truly get the structural supports of a galleon.  In other words, if you
hit you're more likely to hit something important and more likely for
it too be weaker (ie, easier to damage) than on a large ship.  AD&D and
D&D combat abstract all these factors into one nice AC/AR stat.  Of
course, no one really knows where the standard ship stats come from
anyway.

Finally there is one major equation that I will discuss here that
matters in the RW and in SJ is an argument against fighters.  Speed.
Quite simply a helm will attain better speeds than any ship lacking
one.  Simply give the helmsman decent stats and spelljamming
proficiency and most rounds he'll get you SR 2.  Don't worry about MC,
your captain probably has sail manipulation so you already have a +1
there.  The large ships will also have spellcasters so they have a
decent chance of having spells available to improve SR and MC anyway
(even the elves don't have enough of those for all their ships, even
the vodoni only had a couple of their uber-helmsmen per ship--capital
ship that is).  And against fighters all you need to do is outrun them
so it's just you against the other capital ship.  In real life fighters
rely completely on speed.  It makes them hard to hit.  They can swarm a
ship without remaining in range of its weapons for long (not to mention
the advantage height gives its own weapons--not a factor in space).
And they determine when and where attacks will occur.  If the capital
ship can outspeed a fighter it can ignore the fight or determine where
and when it will happen (definitely an argument for SJ fighters to use
formations since if they don't they become easy prey as they are taken
out one by one).

I have chosen to ignore the cost argument in general for all of the
above (besides simple assumptions like capital ships cost more than
fighters but that SJ helms cost so much more still that no one would
equip SJ fighters with more than nonmagical engines, something exactly
opposite the RW).  One note on cost should be made, however.  Small SJ
ships often cost equivalent (ton for ton) or even more than large SJ
craft all before you start paying for [any type of] propulsion.  In the
RW this is generally not the case (historically especially, how cheap
was it to make a rowboat vs a galleon?).

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