Re: LONG -- SJ+Planes / Drow Question / Ranting -- LONG

I think I will introduct you to an entry in the planar dungeon types from
the Dungeon Builder's Guide:

Planejammer:  What is that in the distance?  It looks like a galleon, but it
is floating free in extraplanar space, moving through dimentions as if they
were the seas.  Legends tell of spelljammers, ships that ply the spaces
beyond the world, but ships that ply the planes?

Also, the Gith has the ability (when using elven ships) to make them go
Astral.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Miller" <nghtdrud@??????.net>
To: <SPELLJAMMER-L@??????.???????.com>
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [SPELLJAMMER] LONG -- SJ+Planes / Drow Question / Ranting --
LONG


> Andrew 'NightBeing' Alchemist wrote:
> >
> > BTW, did anyone ever thought WHY mixing SJ and planes is considered at
> > least a bad taste? ;)
> >
>         Who says that?  SJ ships have at least been mentioned in various
PS
> products, including a squid in Sigal, ships in the plane of air, and
> some ships in the outer planes.
>         The big problem with SJ ships in the planes is that you lose the
big
> advantage of moving a ship at 100 million miles a day.  There are other,
> cheaper ways of making flying ships.  And as Rich pointed out, travel in
> the planes is random; SJs offer no shortcut, assuming they work at all.
>
> > 1) Do SJ helms function on other planes?
> >
>         In most, yes.  However, all they are in the planes are fancy
flying
> ships.
>
> > If they do:
> >
> >    Then  why  in  all hells the SJ ships aren't commonly equipped with
> >    plane-hopping devices, and not used extensively on other planes? Do
> >    I  need  to  mention such places as Limbo to make a point that drow
> >    aren't  among the top ten of planehoppers among SJ-aware races, and
> >    aren't even on par with some of SJ-expert races?
> >
>         Because SJ ships are already extremely expensive.  A minimum of
about
> 110,000 gp investment.  Add a plane-hopping device, that adds what,
> another 100,000 gp at least?  That's a bit pricey.  Plus you have to
> deal with all kinds of flying races that would love to steal your ship
> for themselves (about anything from the elemental & lower planes, and
> even some upper planes would be dangerous places to play around in).
>
> >    Why  SJ  ships  don't  travel  in  such  a  state -- for it is MUCH
> >    quicker, and safer in some aspects like air and asteroids?
> >
>         Safer?  The lower planes?  I hadn't realized PS had so watered
down the
> planes that they were considered *SAFER* than Arcane Space.  Now
> granted, Arcane Space used funky physics to make travel with wooden
> ships plausable and got rid of most of the super dangerous stuff that
> keeps US (as in the Real World) out of space, such as radiation,
> golf-ball sized projectiles that can destroy a ship, and hard vacuum.
> Add those in and it becomes debatable.
>
> > And,  finally,  one  question  that  was  ALWAYS  on my mind. It isn't
> > related to planes.
> >
> > Could  anyone  give  me any GOOD reason why SJ ships aren't used "down
> > there"?  I could get some points that strongly suggest otherwise... So
> > really, the above question could transform into "Why it is a bad taste
> > to  mix  SJ  with  anything  non-SJ,  including groundlings?", and the
> > answer  will  likely be: "Because it kills the credibility of SJ". The
> > drow   question  certainly  falls  into  the  same  category.  It  is,
> > basically:  "Why land-dwellers don't use SJ ships?" If we ask why drow
> > don't  SJ,  and  how to make them, then why we aren't asking questions
> > like:
> >
>         <Sigh> This comes up every six months or so.
>         I'll do you one better: why don't kingdoms just establish large,
> permanent portals in their kingdoms? A portal is even better than a SJ
> ship; you can move an army instantly.  Sieges become a waste of an
> attacker's resources.  Trade is instantiously.  You can move food from
> outlying farms to the capital city 1,000 miles away in a few hours.
> With such abilities, you could have an enormous capital city supplied by
> farms two regions away.
>
> > Example #1:
> >
> > Many rulers could easily afford a small fleet of SJ ships. Not too few
> > of  them  are  SJ-aware. Imagine some medium or large ship packed with
> > troops  suddenly  landing  in  the  dead  of  the  night in a critical
> > location  of  enemy's  territory?  These troops will not need to worry
> > about  months-long fighting advance, not even too much about supplies.
>
>         Don't need a fancy SJ ship for that.  Any flying ship will do
exactly
> the same thing.  SJ ships don't offer any other advantage other than
> altitude.
>
> > Imagine  a lone dragonfly hovering over an enemy's positions acting as
> > a  recon?  Imagine  it  has  all  of  its  5-ton cargo bay loaded with
> > incendiaries? Now give me a reason why they don't do it?
> >
>         A 120,000 gp recon ship easily taken out by a small flight of
flying
> creatures, such as 2-3 griffon riders, a pack of harpies, or a single
> dragon.  Why bother when you can do the same thing with a flying wizard
> with an invisibility spell?  Same effect, cheaper, and less likely to be
> noticed.
>
> > WHY every aspiring emperor does not use SJ ships to conquer the entire
> > planet?
> >
>         Because they can't afford them, because they don't understand
them,
> because they have better alternatives.  SJ ships offer just one magical
> advantage in combat.  There are countless more.
>
> > Example #2:
> >
> > Let's  consider  trade. There are many SJ ships that go here and there
> > doing  trade  business. They don't make a LOT of money, otherwise even
> > their sailor would have been rich people, AND the SJ piracy would have
> > been  hundred-fold  more  common.
>
>         I doubt crews get that much from a rich cargo run.  I think
pirates
> were the only ones that divided booty somewhat equally.  Sailors get a
> set pay and maybe a bonus if they do a good job.
>
> > But  there's  a  LOT  of  goods  that  make  a HUGE profit down there.
> > Ordinary  ship  could take a few months of risky travel to get a cargo
> > of spice or exotic craftsmanship from one continent to another. For SJ
> > ship,  it is a matter of maximum of half-a-week, to lift off and touch
> > down at another point of the planet. And the hazards are much less, if
> > not to say zeroed.
> >
>         Again, why use expensive spelljammers when you have basic flying
ships
> and portals?  I see a lot of people complain that SJ could ruin a game
> world with limitless trade, but no one considers that portals have an
> even worse effect.  Why hasn't Waterdeep, with it's many mages, not
> openned portals connecting that city to Mirabar, cities in the
> Amn/Tethyr, Sembia, and even Shou Lung?  Why hasn't it openned portals
> to distant worlds like Greyhawk & Krynn?  Permanent portals are far
> worse than SJ can hope to be.
>
> > So,  WHY  every  SJ  captain who's in need of some quick cash does not
> > make  a  few  such trips in a time it takes to reach the nearest other
> > planet?   WHY  trade  empires  like  real-world  Hanseatic  League  or
> > Venetians don't use SJ ships?
> >
>         Why don't they use portals?  Why don't they use magic roads with
> dimension distortion?  Why don't they use charmed Zaratan (the turtles
> the size of islands)?  Why don't they just pull matter out of the
> etheral and create anything they want without having to leave home?
>
> > One  occasional Drow in the Space is OK, but do we need to pull to the
> > stars every groundling race that just does not belong there?
> >
>         Because people like doing that.  Don't ask me why.  Everyone has
their
> favorite critter they like to take into space to be 'different'.
>
> > Why we aren't talking Kobold starfleets? They need much less space and
> > supplies,  so  they  have  MUCH  more  probability to find their niche
> > there.
> >
>         The kobolds DID have a major presence in space...until the elves
wiped
> them out.  Why not ask the same of halflings?  They're just as small but
> better fighters than the kobolds could hope to be.
>
> > Why  there  aren't  too  much  SJ Minotaurs? Do Giffs beat them to the
> > pulp?
> >
>         Because they didn't have room to devote to developing each and
every
> race as an SJ one.  They did make the big minotaur empire on Krynn have
> a significant wildspace port of call, and on the net there's at least
> one sphere that's entirely dominated by minotaurs from Krynn.
>
> > Why not put Treefolk in the skies? They certainly could get along with
> > EIN very well ;)
> >
>         Because they'd miss the forests.  Nothing to root into in space,
except
> maybe asteroids.  The one treant character in SJ books was rather
> unhappy and wanted to go home.
>
> > BTW, do EIN plant-ships have an air-regeneration capability? ;)
>
>         Never said, but I think universally decided as yes.
> --
> Adam Miller
>
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