Re: Battle for the Lytherian astroid

>While interesting I find severl things of note with the battle you
>described.
>
>1)  all forces should fight like the forces they are.  By this I mean
>your humanoids acted very well as mercenaries or Tenth Pit but not as
>scro, who we all know prefer to get in close fast and unleash the
>marines rather than duke it out at range, even if that might be wiser.

I disagree completely. Scro are portrayed in both the novels and the game
materials as intelligent opponents. "National fighting characteristics" are
a myth in the real world, and given the scros ability to understand the
advantages of softening the enemy I think they would follow the most
tactically sound route.

> With this in mind I wonder why the scro didn't land outside of the
>elven range and drop off marines before they began their aerial
>assault or have the ships land one by one to do so after they'd beaten
>back the air field defenses (covered by the other vessels, of course).

The astroid was not large, it was a resupply base.  Every inch of the
astroid was within medium range of the elvish archers, most of it was
within short range.  (the astroid was approximately 120 yards across and
180 yards long. It was shaped somewhat like a flat potato, at its thikest
it was 20 yards thick.  The elven archers were behind arrowslits, the game
ended with the scro unable to get at the archers, and the elves unable to
damage the scro vessels.  This didn't unduly concern the scro as the
mission was to kill as many elves as possible and destroy as much of the
base as possible. Actually capturing this base wasn't imperative.

>2)  Once again we see the poor design which gives SJ weaponry worse
>range with larger weapons.  I think several people have modified this
>in their campaigns and I think this illustrates a good reason why.

Actually, I used standard Battlesystem ranges for the weapons, instead of
SJ ranges, as most of the astroids in the field had atmospheres and were
close together.  In the report, however, in order to avoid having to
explain that I just exchanged "Light" and "medium" Ballistae in the report.
The point is that the scro commander stayed at a range where he could have
the most favorable balance of the fire (at a range where more scro weapons
were in range then elven weapons).

Concerning the range thing I'm still ambivalent.  Many of the factors that
favor larger weapons in regards to range in the real world are missing from
the SJ universe in space.  Ballistics are a complicated science to begin
with, and our knowledge of catapult and ballista ballistics is skectchy at
best (heck, our knowledge of Ren cannon ballistics are pretty damn
sketchy).  I too feel the ranges should be reversed, but that's just a
hunch, I haven't seen a convincing argument in its favor yet.

>Also tracking the movement of fired shots each round until they clear the
>>battle area might well have altered the battle as a failed initiative
>roll >could have put a heavy catapult shot into one of the ship's sides.

This battle was all carried out within 1 standard SJ hex,  the ship's were
simply never in such a position.

>I think one of the primary problems with ships versus ground
>fortifications is >ships are subject to critical hits.  Any significant
>battle will have a couple >and though I didn't see you note them a
>spelljammer shock mage one a ship >within the gravity field of the
>asteroid could spell doom as the ship fell "to >earth".  Ship shaken hits
>would also be significant as, of course, would loss >of maneuverability.

If I recall correctly, the dragonfly took a fire critical hit, but suffered
so much other damage during that turn it was irrelevant (the ship was
destroyed).  No other critical hits happened. <shrug>  I do agree that
critical hits are one of the great equalizers in ship to ground assault,
but Spelljammer shock is only a 5% chance when a critical hit occurs, which
is usually only a 5% chance itself (or, when higher, the ROF is so slow
that the actuall chance in a given battle remains the same).

>On the converse side of the a ship has the advantage of being all in one
>hex >and thus having all its weapons centrally located.  Most base designs
>I've seen >place weapons over several hexes so a savvy player (not
>necessarily character) >can manuever so they can isolate one or two
>weapons and pound on them.  When >they're gone the ship moves withing
>range of the next base weapon.

I agree, in most cases. This wasn't that large of a base, however. Against
Bral, or the farming astroid I designed, Finagle, that would work well.

>3)  One note is this refers somewhat to #1 above, too.  Why didn't the
>elves >have any prearranged magical defenses?  Something as simple as
>hallucinatory >terrain, hallucinatory forest, magic mouth spells, or the
>like could have >helped them greatly.  Also a nice wall of fog or fog
>cloud could have prevented >an enemy ship from doing anything (as no one
>could see) but I only noted the >use of destructive spells.  Sleep works
>especially well on orcs and could have >quickly removed the scorpion
>weapon crews as a threat.  Charm and suggestion >spells I like the most as
>they can cause an enemy of any power to suddenly >become a distraction to
>his friends.

If I did it today I would have added more magic to the elves, as I feel
magic is there pirmary defense.  I also think I designed the base a bit
underpowered, since the elves counted on it to defend itself against raids
like this one.  Just by comparison, the 'Elantari, an elven Man-o-War I
designed as an example of a "typical" IEN man-o-war would have most likely
been able to take this base quite easily.  Some non-destructive spells were
used, but range played a large part, if you check, most lower level wizard
spells are far out ranged by artillery and longbows. _Sleep_, for example,
only has a range of 30 yards.  If I had it to do over all the spearmen and
longbowmen would have been F/Ms with Magic Missile or wall of fog spells
memorized.

>4)  This point isn't really a critique but rather a roleplaying note and
>has >little to do with the actual battle you presented.  Humanoids find
>battles >great times for advancement.  Say the scro have lorded their
>mastery over the >others a little too much so as soon as the mantis
>suffers a ship shaken crit >the other vessels pull out of elven range and
>pound it.  They hope the "fleet" >flagship will crash and they'll get to
>let their two enemies duke it out while >neither has a way to escape the
>asteroid.  Or maybe the scro first mate decides >he needs to be captain,
>especially after the loss of the blades which he sees >as useless.

With lesser orcs, perhaps, but that sort of selfdestructive behavior is why
the elves won the UWI, so I think the scro religiously avoid it.  The
novels seem to bakc this up, General Vorr remains loyal to Admiral Halker,
its only the OA Foxwoman who actually betrays them in _Maelstrom's Eye_.
In _The Radient Dragon_ a bit more dissent is shown, but no scro is
disloyal in that way.  Perhaps the orcs in this fleet might have, but this
battle was fought prior to my Scro navy write up, today I'd have assigned a
Scro warpriest and a few bodyguards to each orc vessel to prevent what you
describe.

>5)  How did the attackers communicate and so time their actions?
>Semaphore?  >Magic?  This is very important as line of sight would come
>into play with all >those ships suddenly running to the asteroid field so
>many times.  Timing was >key to the humanoid attack and I would like to
>know how they did it.

Planning and signal lights (according to _Maelstrom's Eye_ the Scro use
signal lamps to communicate between vessels).  The scro reconed the base
for a week before the attack, and pretty much followed their game plan, as
the elven defenses were not able to seriously disrupt it.  For the Recon, I
think they most likely used a Blade painted pitch black, perhaps cloaked
with some illusion spells to make it look like part of an astroid or star
field. Warpriests could accomplish that for a Blade sized vessel, and could
change the illusion to take advantage of the local terrain.

>dark).  It also interferes with orc and goblin sight (minuses to hit).

Good ideas.

>6)  Why wasn't at least one ship on patrol to help prevent foes from
>sneaking up.  They don't have to engage, just see the enemy and run
>home with some semaphore raised to sound the alarm.

That's why the captain was demoted:)

>8)  Permanent bases should have covered turrets, much like archers use
>arrow slits and crenelations to provide them with cover.  Add a team
>to man the cover and it could open when the weapon's ready to fire and
>close while its reloading (the observatory or garage door effect).
>This adds additional personnel costs but you have marines who could
>fill this function and act as a back up weapon crew in case the first
>one needs replacements.

Yes, in both this spelljammer/Battlesystem game and the many Space:1889
Soldiers Companion games I've played since, the need for carefully designed
artillery position, which have cover aganst aerial foes, has been apparent.

>Those are some of my initial thoughts on the matter but I do think
>your example demonstrates one of the long time principles of war, a
>static defense will never beat a good mobile offense.

That's somewhat self-evident, since a good mobile offense is defined by its
ability to beat a static defense:)

"We look on the same stars,  the sky is common,  the same world surrounds
us.  What difference does it make by what pains each seeks the truth?  We
can not attain to so great a secret by one road..."
Symmachus,  "Memorial on the Occasion of the Removal of the Altar of
Victory from the Senate House" (392 AD)

Paul Westermeyer,  westermeyer.3@???.edu
Phd Candidate, History, Ohio State
Adjunct Faculty, Humanities Department, Columbus State Community College