Re: Spelljamming

> > > Except you still have given us a way to counter the winds.
> >
> > Enlarge and climb+levitate instead of fly, then. That's assuming no
> spell
> > research exists in this universe, which is unlikely, especially
> given your
> > unspecified anti-scrying spells.
>
> I thought you said you weren't going to research a spell just for this
> encounter.  If that's your answer I accept it you just never seemed to
> have made a clear decision.

I probably wouldn't research a spell designed to counter winds. I see it
as fairly pointless and special-purpose, and I wouldn't actually want it
taking up one of my "spell-known" slots, unless I had a 19 Int. or
something.

What I mean is that the things here are just pulled out of the PHB and
TOM. If we allow other sources, there are spells that would nicely counter
the winds through their side-effects. Oh, what's it called? Whisper's
Minor Force Wall, I think, from the GNSB, creates a small wall of force on
one side of the caster that could block the wind. Rebel's Fly, another
GNSB spell, gives MV 50 at MC A, which should deal nicely with any wind
(even if we take MV as relative and not absolute). Dheryth's Spell Trigger
is a useful contingency spell for this occasion. It all depends on what
the wizard has in his spellbook.

> There's an anti-scrying spell at 6th level (I'm drawing a blank on the
> name) that you could start with.  It's one of the core spells.

[sigh] I miss my books. I do know there's a personal anti-scrying spell
available at third level--Nondetection?--that the wizard would use against
the dragon if he had it.

> Also
> you could try a ward such as wardmist (I think it causes all scrying
> attempts to see only mist but I have to look up the spell description
> again to be sure).  Speaking of wards the dragon might add a teleport
> ward which would limit access even more.

Yeah. That would actually be, IMHO, a better security measure than
anti-warding spells in a lot of ways. Ideally you'd have both.

> And I noticed several
> dragons can get up to 6th level clerical spells in the MM so the
> dragon might add a couple clerical wards too.

Good thought. Mages would probably have a tougher time with clerical magic
than wizardly wards. (Wizard Sight--TOM--is good for invading mages.)

> > Just what kind of a mountain are we talking about, anyway? A marble
> tower?
> > All the mountains I've ever seen have plenty of hand holds
> sufficient to
> > anchor against a normal wind. What kind of wind speeds are you
> imagining?
>
> I'm think a steep cliff mountain at high altitudes.  The area is
> constantly buffeted by high winds and the cliff face isn't smooth but
> scree and loose rocks make it dangerous to climb.

Okay, the winds aren't *too* high, or all those loose rocks would be in a
big pile at the bottom. I think I would tend to favor the enhanced climb,
probably enlarged rather than reduced. If it didn't work, of course, you'd
try another tack.

> > I don't usually get blown around my street by even strong winds.
> Besides,
> > objecting on these grounds is a fairly weak defense for the dragon. If
> > necessary, you *could* piton all the way up--say you were facing
> winds of
> > 75 mph or so.
>
> So do so.  I never said you couldn't.  Of course you'd better have
> paid well for your mountaineering proficiency, have lots of rope and
> pitons available, and hope the dragon doesn't drop by while you're
> doing it.

You need a proficiency to pound in a spike? We're just using the tools of
the trade--you don't need to know everything, because Levitate takes care
of most of the work. And yes, you would need a lot of rope and pitons. If
the dragon drops by, you can always leave.

On second thought, on the cliff face you're describing, this probably
wouldn't be a good idea. Also, I would likely not bother enlarging. If the
rocks are secure enough to hold their own weight against gravity, they'll
be plenty strong enough--in general--to hold me against mountain winds.

> I see you haven't done much rock climbing.  I've done only a little (I
> have a couple friends who are really into it) and I can tell you your
> hands freeze up fast (not freeze like get cold but the finger joints
> lock due to the strain).

But we're not even having to support our own weight. (No, I don't rock
climb. :)) I have had the lock-up experience, though, when playing the
piano. I can only bend the first joint, nearest to the tip. Trippy...

> That will make somatic spell casting and
> retrieving spell components a real pain when you get there but it is
> an option.

I would argue that AD&D "human" physiology doesn't appear subject to this
type of disability. If you want to write rules for it, though, fine. Maybe
your campaign will benefit. Don't forget rules for cold weather too.

Here's another thought. If it is a mountain cliff, you might be able to
Dimension Door up to the top of the cliff, toss down a weighted rope, and
rappel (always with Levitate, of course) down to the entrance. That's if
the loose rocks don't seem secure enough. It's hard to say from where I am
now; that's the kind of decision you'd make at the site.

> > Incidentally, I don't think this is true. A dragon, like any flying
> > creature, would have a certain airspeed velocity. If the wind is
> blowing,
> > its absolute velocity changes by that amount.
>
> To some extent you're correct.  My point was that a dragon would be
> able to stay relatively stable even in updrafts, downdrafts, and cross
> currents whereas the magical flier gets velocity in only one direction
> (a direction he can change, admittedly) so sudden wind shifts will
> throw him around quite a bit.  The area I proposed was prone to such
> wind shifts.

Oh, I see. Inertia. (The wind changes, you get a force from a new
direction, you have to adjust before it starts significantly affecting
your motion.) So Enlarge *would* help, if we were in free flight.
Square-cube forces.

> > > > 1.) In that case, you can't be sure that winds would be enough to
> > > stop a
> > > > Fly spell. It could be you get the same old MV 18 whether in
> > > > hurricane-force winds or dead calm.
> > >
> > > You do.  Only the move 24 winds more than negate it and cross
> currents
> > > will throw you to the side.
>
> Not if your large wings and high body mass give you stability in the
> air as they do for a dragon.  For the person using a fly spell you are
> mre than correct, however (in fact that was part of my point).

[Hemlock looks confused] Am I? I thought you were arguing for relative,
not absolute velocity. I'm also not sure what you're disagreeing with
about the large wings and high body mass.

> Someone using shapechange or polymorph self to get up there would need
> to be very familiar with flying in the form assumed for me to let them
> have the necessary proficiency

Too bad. IMHO, if you've got Polymorph Self, you probably should use it
often enough to get that kind of proficiency in multiple forms. It's a
great spell and should be used constantly. :) However, I don't think it's
reasonable to simply assume the infiltrator has such a proficiency.

> > Large wings catch more air.
>
> Exactly, and that gives the dragon stability.

Gotcha. You're talking about wind shifts, not sheer speed.

>
> > And I do have something to hold on to--the
> > cliffs. (Hmmm. I thought the speed reduction/blowing away *was* for
> flying
> > creatures. Maybe that's Wind Wall.)
>
> Ah, so you're using fly while trying to scale the cliffs.  A good
> combo but you'll still experience many the same problems you did with
> levitate.

[Hemlock re-reads the thread] You're right. We weren't talking about
levitate. We were just talking about the way a Fly spell works.

To be honest, I probably would use a Fly instead of Levitate. I prefer Fly
as being much more versatile, at only one extra level of cost. But in this
situation, they're pretty much functionally identical.

> > They don't need to hold that much more weight, just enough to
> compensate
> > for the increased surface area. My Levitate takes care of gravity.
>
> So you're comboing again?

Always. I wouldn't try to climb the rocks without a magical aid--I'm a
wizard, not a thief :)--let alone Enlarged. [shudder]

> OK but you still lose out on a lot of holds
> and cross winds will be a pain.  If most of your weight is held
> magically you're still very susceptible to those winds (gravity does a
> lot to keep a body balanced against the winds and gives most of the
> traction when climbing rocks, by negating most of gravity's force
> you've lost your best rock climbing asset).

Mmmmm. Good point. Ironic, isn't it?

Another thought just struck me. Polymorph Self gives the movement rate of
the creature imitated. Black puddings can climb walls, and would have
little problem sticking to the cliff. [a pause] Then again, you couldn't
bring any equipment outside your body, which means you'd have to change
back to human form to get access to your gear. This may not be a good
idea.

> > I feel it would balance out. The point is unimportant, though, because
> > if you're right and it turns out that climbing is more difficult for
> > larger creatures, you just reverse tactics and cast Reduce instead of
> > Enlarge. [shrug] I seriously doubt these winds will be a problem.
>
> And now you have less mass and it's harder to get to those far apart
> handholds.

That's one reason I tend to think Enlarge is better than unenhanced. But
the terrain--loose rock--makes a difference here. If the cliff really is
covered in shale, it should be simple to find tiny handholds for a tiny
person.

You ever notice something weird? Enlarge and Reduce have no effect on
movement rate. Someday I'll either think up an explanation or change it.
If it was changed, you'd switch to Fly instead of Levitate, of course.

> Gravity's still negated by levitate so you are probably
> still going sailing.

That point about gravity is making me think that Fly is probably a much
better alternative than Levitate. For one thing, you could (possibly,
depending on how it works) simulate gravity perpendicular to the ground by
flying in the direction of the cliff.

> > So why suggest this in the first place? [Hemlock scratches his head]
>
> Trying to dominate a beholder to get in a dragon lair sounded like a
> bad idea to me.  Better to just dominate the dragon and have him take
> you in.  At least when he breaks domination you've only got one
> serious enemy instead of two (if you accidentally swing that beholder
> the wrong way his own eye's going to break your hold and now you've
> got a problem).

Depends on how you look at it. If you see Domination as a link between
caster and victim (admittedly, a good interpretation, now that I think of
it) then yeah, catching the caster in the anti-magic ray is going to be a
problem. Not just the Dominate, but all my other spells go down as well.
On the other hand, it's not a Dispel, so everything re-activates once the
ray goes away. (Although I've heard some DMs rule that it *does* dispel
magic permanently. If you're one of those, that would change things.)

Anyway, I wouldn't use him in battle. That's cheating. :) (I would then
have to explain where I got the beholder, whereas if I'm just using him as
a glorified spade I don't mind handwaving it away. If you do mind, we'll
drop this line of exploration.)

> > > Like trying to dominate and then hold the domination of a beholder
> > > (while in battle with a dragon no less!) is easy.
> >
> > 1.) Holding Domination isn't particularly hard. The duration is
> measured
> > in days, even for an exceptionally intelligent creature like a
> beholder.
> >
> > 2.) Perhaps I didn't convey clearly what we are doing with the
> beholder. I
> > brought up the beholder when we were discussing alternate routes
> into a
> > dragon's lair, such as through Passwall and Dig. A beholder's
> > disintegration eye makes an admirable substitute for both of these. It
> > would be a lot more difficult to *hire* a beholder to enter combat
> with a
> > dragon; we just use him as a digging implement.
>
> I understood.  But he's still going to be nearby when you get sucked
> into a heavy duty fight.  Anything happen to break your hold on him
> (eye turned in wrong direction, in radius of dispel magic or
> anti-magic shell, caster suddenly incapacitated or toasted, the rest
> of his hive shows up, etc.) and you've got another major problem
> running up your...rear defenses.

I wasn't really planning on having him nearby in the fight. Assuming we
are talking about a Dominated beholder--the alternative I'm actually
leaning away from, for psychological reasons--I'd either send him away
after we penetrated the lair, or if the dragon happened to be there when
breakthrough was achieved, send on a kamikaze at the dragon (while I
teleport out, or at least elsewhere).

Perhaps not, though. I've realized, I seem to be heavily dependent on
teleportation magics. The safest assumption is to assume that the dragon
has anti-teleportation wards up in his lair. Perhaps we should stick to
Project Image variants. (A longer range would be nice, for one thing.)

In any case, will you grant that tunnelling up through the cliff face to
the false entrance would probably solve most of the problems with the
repulsion trap? (Depends partly on how high the cliff is. Oh, here's
another fun one. Send the beholder in alone to disintegrate the ground
floor of the mountain. Instead of Rock-to-Mudding the local terrain, we'll
simply collapse it.)

> > anything not anchored to a stable surface.) You could Polymorph into a
> > larger creature to fly up, since you seem convinced that larger
> creatures
> > would be relatively immune to the winds.
>
> Addressed.  Incidentally I'm still waiting for your decision on
> exactly how you are going to deal with them.

Decision? That's something for the wizard to decide on-site. In any
case, there's no reason one couldn't try multiple tacks until one works. I
must say, given the square-cube factors and your description of the cliff
face, Enlarged flight-assisted climb sounds like a good option. Better
yet, why climb the cliff at all? Simple Rock-to-Mud everything in reach
until the face collapses. That's the main reason we were trying to get up
there.

Then there is, as you mentioned, Spider Climb. When near the entrance,
stick a piton in the rock. Perhaps we'll toss that onto our flight
package. (Let's try flight-assisted climb before Rock-to-Mud, just in
case.)

> No, I'm just waiting for your actual strategy (I never said this was
> unbeatable, just a nasty one time surprise that could catch even the
> wary/tricky).

(I thought I was the one who said that.) If I didn't know the trap was
there, strategy would go like this this:

1. Stoneskin
2. Fly
3. Armor variants
(1,2,3 are SOP for this kind of thing.)
4. Clairvoyance:
    	fails.
5. Invisibilty (can't hurt)
6. Probably Mirror Image or Alpha's Images of Ikonn to boot.
7. Personal contingency to Dimension Door out upon any physical damage.
8. Any other magical protection spells I have, mostly custom or 'net.
	(Kiri's Mystical Screen is a nice spell, if you've got it.)
9. Polymorph Self (no form changes yet, just looking for the capability).
10. Dimension Door up to the entrance.
     	Wizard is pushed out the entrance.
	Wizard falls, then catches self with Fly.
11. Wizard falls back to analyze the situation.

The wizard should probably have some custom spells for exactly this kind
of nut-cracking. One of the ones I think would be a good idea is a
sight-and-sound-linked Domination. It wouldn't help in this situation, but
you don't know that until you try it. (Or maybe it would help. Let's look
at that 6th level spell you mentioned.)

> > > don't so what is there to trade places with?  And yes, it is trading
> > > places with the mind as yours comes with you and theirs goes into
> the
> > > gem.  Incidentally you're the one who brought up a zombie having a
> > > mind (which is in error).
> >
> > A mind? No, I suggested a Sight Link. It's not contingent upon a
> zombie
> > having a mind, unless you design the spell that way.
>
> Actually I believe you said something like you read the zombies might
> (or extract the info from it, I forget your exact wording) after you
> send him scouting).

Actually, you said that. Along the lines of "You still have to extract the
information," to which I replied that I was thinking along the lines of
sight links or Magic Jar.

> > (You'd probably want
> > a necromantic version, designed especially for undead. Details...)
>
> More spell research...

Yeah. If you've got zombies, use them effectively.

> > > From what I've seen the oldest reds (great wyrms) get only 4th level
> > > mage spells.
> >
> > Might be. I don't have my books, but if anyone wants to check, feel
> free.
>
> Actually I did last night.  Golds get 7th level spells as do a couple
> others and several get 6th level spells.

7th? Are you sure you're not reading the clerical column? (The one after
the slash.) I thought it was something like 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 / ? ? ? ? ? ?
? for a Gold great wyrm.

[snip]

> But dragons can conver these spells so this gives them a library to
> convert spells from.  And any spells that are already verbal only
> (power words at some of the mid/high levels) will be immediately
> addable to their spell lists so they get at least some flexibility.

But in allowing dragons to convert these spells, you're doing spell
research. According to vanilla rules, only golds have formal magical
training.

> I never do.  However I'm designing a trap based on this dragon having
> access to a few key spells.  If he doesn't have those spells (and his
> servitors don't) then obviously he won't be one of those dragons that
> will try this particular trap.

:) Fair enough.

> > (If the servitors are more magically powerful than the dragon, why are
> > they servitors?)
>
> Why not?  Lots of pay.  A good geas or dominate.  Charm person (steel
> dragons can use charm person at will), charm monster, mass charm, etc.
>  Hey, every lich needs a good ally or two and a dragon who'll live as
> long as he does while the two trade spell lore is a nasty foe.

Ooooh, a lich! Now *that's* a nasty foe. I'll tackle a dragon--largely
because they don't have strong magical abilites--but I'm not getting
within sixty leagues of a lich. Remember spell research? He's probably
spent centuries on it. And he was an archmage to begin with...

Hemlock