Spelljamming

> > Except you still have given us a way to counter the winds.
>
> Enlarge and climb+levitate instead of fly, then. That's assuming no
spell
> research exists in this universe, which is unlikely, especially
given your
> unspecified anti-scrying spells.

I thought you said you weren't going to research a spell just for this
encounter.  If that's your answer I accept it you just never seemed to
have made a clear decision.

There's an anti-scrying spell at 6th level (I'm drawing a blank on the
name) that you could start with.  It's one of the core spells.  Also
you could try a ward such as wardmist (I think it causes all scrying
attempts to see only mist but I have to look up the spell description
again to be sure).  Speaking of wards the dragon might add a teleport
ward which would limit access even more.  And I noticed several
dragons can get up to 6th level clerical spells in the MM so the
dragon might add a couple clerical wards too.

> > However, levitation is just a safety belt. Mainly, the idea is to
> > climb
> > > the rock face--with levitation as a sort of climbing tool. If
you're
> > > already on the rock face, winds aren't going to bother you much; I
> > > shouldn't think anything less than hurricane-force winds would be
> > able to
> > > blow you _off_ the cliff, to slam you back onto them for damage.
> >
> > Of course they could.  Even you don't get a good grip they'll blow
you
> > across the rocks until you're no longer attached to anything.
>
> Just what kind of a mountain are we talking about, anyway? A marble
tower?
> All the mountains I've ever seen have plenty of hand holds
sufficient to
> anchor against a normal wind. What kind of wind speeds are you
imagining?

I'm think a steep cliff mountain at high altitudes.  The area is
constantly buffeted by high winds and the cliff face isn't smooth but
scree and loose rocks make it dangerous to climb.

> I don't usually get blown around my street by even strong winds.
Besides,
> objecting on these grounds is a fairly weak defense for the dragon. If
> necessary, you *could* piton all the way up--say you were facing
winds of
> 75 mph or so.

So do so.  I never said you couldn't.  Of course you'd better have
paid well for your mountaineering proficiency, have lots of rope and
pitons available, and hope the dragon doesn't drop by while you're
doing it.

> (Even then, I don't know. I imagine that I could probably keep a
strong
> enough handhold to avoid being blown off the roof of a truck going 75
> mph.)

I see you haven't done much rock climbing.  I've done only a little (I
have a couple friends who are really into it) and I can tell you your
hands freeze up fast (not freeze like get cold but the finger joints
lock due to the strain).  That will make somatic spell casting and
retrieving spell components a real pain when you get there but it is
an option.

> > > > > And the simplest one is just
> > > > > to cast Enlarge on myself, increasing my mass by twentyfold or
> > more.
> > > >
> > > > Now you catch even more wind and get pushed around even easier.
> > > > Remember a fly spell isn't like real wings, it doesn't help you
> > fight
> > > > the wind anymore than its flying movement rate will allow
(whereas a
> > > > dragon massive wings and wing muscles combined with its mass
let it
> > > > ignore the local winds).
>
> Incidentally, I don't think this is true. A dragon, like any flying
> creature, would have a certain airspeed velocity. If the wind is
blowing,
> its absolute velocity changes by that amount.

To some extent you're correct.  My point was that a dragon would be
able to stay relatively stable even in updrafts, downdrafts, and cross
currents whereas the magical flier gets velocity in only one direction
(a direction he can change, admittedly) so sudden wind shifts will
throw him around quite a bit.  The area I proposed was prone to such
wind shifts.

> > > 1.) In that case, you can't be sure that winds would be enough to
> > stop a
> > > Fly spell. It could be you get the same old MV 18 whether in
> > > hurricane-force winds or dead calm.
> >
> > You do.  Only the move 24 winds more than negate it and cross
currents
> > will throw you to the side.

Not if your large wings and high body mass give you stability in the
air as they do for a dragon.  For the person using a fly spell you are
mre than correct, however (in fact that was part of my point).
Someone using shapechange or polymorph self to get up there would need
to be very familiar with flying in the form assumed for me to let them
have the necessary proficiency (the Simbul from FR or a druid might be
able to do it but I would have to have seen the player practice that
form extensively over the course of a campaign before I'd let them
have much success--their own unfamiliarity with such an unusual
ability in such treacherous conditions should ground them pretty quick).

> Large wings catch more air.

Exactly, and that gives the dragon stability.

> And I do have something to hold on to--the
> cliffs. (Hmmm. I thought the speed reduction/blowing away *was* for
flying
> creatures. Maybe that's Wind Wall.)

Ah, so you're using fly while trying to scale the cliffs.  A good
combo but you'll still experience many the same problems you did with
levitate.

> They don't need to hold that much more weight, just enough to
compensate
> for the increased surface area. My Levitate takes care of gravity.

So you're comboing again?  OK but you still lose out on a lot of holds
and cross winds will be a pain.  If most of your weight is held
magically you're still very susceptible to those winds (gravity does a
lot to keep a body balanced against the winds and gives most of the
traction when climbing rocks, by negating most of gravity's force
you've lost your best rock climbing asset).

> I feel it would balance out. The point is unimportant, though, because
> if you're right and it turns out that climbing is more difficult for
> larger creatures, you just reverse tactics and cast Reduce instead of
> Enlarge. [shrug] I seriously doubt these winds will be a problem.

And now you have less mass and it's harder to get to those far apart
handholds.  Gravity's still negated by levitate so you are probably
still going sailing.

> > > > Why not just dominate the dragon and be done with it?
> > >
> > > We're trying to penetrate its lair.
> >
> > Exactly.
>
> So why suggest this in the first place? [Hemlock scratches his head]

Trying to dominate a beholder to get in a dragon lair sounded like a
bad idea to me.  Better to just dominate the dragon and have him take
you in.  At least when he breaks domination you've only got one
serious enemy instead of two (if you accidentally swing that beholder
the wrong way his own eye's going to break your hold and now you've
got a problem).

> > > Admittedly, you *could* just try to
> > > ambush and dominate the dragon, but its magic resistance makes
this
> > risky.
> >
> > Like trying to dominate and then hold the domination of a beholder
> > (while in battle with a dragon no less!) is easy.
>
> 1.) Holding Domination isn't particularly hard. The duration is
measured
> in days, even for an exceptionally intelligent creature like a
beholder.
>
> 2.) Perhaps I didn't convey clearly what we are doing with the
beholder. I
> brought up the beholder when we were discussing alternate routes
into a
> dragon's lair, such as through Passwall and Dig. A beholder's
> disintegration eye makes an admirable substitute for both of these. It
> would be a lot more difficult to *hire* a beholder to enter combat
with a
> dragon; we just use him as a digging implement.

I understood.  But he's still going to be nearby when you get sucked
into a heavy duty fight.  Anything happen to break your hold on him
(eye turned in wrong direction, in radius of dispel magic or
anti-magic shell, caster suddenly incapacitated or toasted, the rest
of his hive shows up, etc.) and you've got another major problem
running up your...rear defenses.

> There are numerous ways to counter the winds. You've seen some
enumerated,
> even when I grant you all your own interpretations of the way Fly
and Gust
> of Wind work. (I.e. Fly is dependent on airspeed, Gust of Wind blows
away
> anything not anchored to a stable surface.) You could Polymorph into a
> larger creature to fly up, since you seem convinced that larger
creatures
> would be relatively immune to the winds.

Addressed.  Incidentally I'm still waiting for your decision on
exactly how you are going to deal with them.

> Rappel from above.

You'll still get blown around and now you have no real grip on the
cliff face.

> Summon an air
> elemental (or maybe it's Invisible Stalkers that are immune to winds;
> perhaps I misremember). Not all of these would work in this
situation, and
> some are better than others, but I really feel you are quibbling on
this
> issue.

No, I'm just waiting for your actual strategy (I never said this was
unbeatable, just a nasty one time surprise that could catch even the
wary/tricky).

> > > It's not the mind you trade places with in Magic Jar, it's the
life
> > force.
> > > You can definitely possess undead; to say that you can't possess
> > zombies
> > > sounds like a house ruling.
> >
> > Why?  Some undead have life forces but mindless undead like zombies
> > don't so what is there to trade places with?  And yes, it is trading
> > places with the mind as yours comes with you and theirs goes into
the
> > gem.  Incidentally you're the one who brought up a zombie having a
> > mind (which is in error).
>
> A mind? No, I suggested a Sight Link. It's not contingent upon a
zombie
> having a mind, unless you design the spell that way.

Actually I believe you said something like you read the zombies might
(or extract the info from it, I forget your exact wording) after you
send him scouting).

> (You'd probably want
> a necromantic version, designed especially for undead. Details...)

More spell research...

> > > Dragons tend to have a poor spell selection. They have more raw
power
> > > (higher casting level), but they learn spells randomly, and even
an
> > > ancient red only gets 5th level spells.
> >
> > From what I've seen the oldest reds (great wyrms) get only 4th level
> > mage spells.
>
> Might be. I don't have my books, but if anyone wants to check, feel
free.

Actually I did last night.  Golds get 7th level spells as do a couple
others and several get 6th level spells.  I also noticed several that
can get up to 6th level clerical spells to back up their mage
abilties.  Shadow dragons get 6th level spells (just a note for when
his breath sucks down most of your levels you'll know what level
spells you might be fried by shortly thereafter).

> > Personally I'd never give a dragon a random spell
> > selection (it's too easy to kill off a couple low level mages and
> > steal their spell boks
>
> Assuming dragons learn spells from human spell books. Remember, dragon
> variants of spells have only verbal components and casting time one.
These
> are actually different versions of the spells, as evidenced by the
fact
> that certain Naga (not Spirit, the other evil kind--Dark?) are able to
> learn to cast the verbal-only dragon versions of these spells. Thus,
it's
> not a special property of being a dragon.

But dragons can conver these spells so this gives them a library to
convert spells from.  And any spells that are already verbal only
(power words at some of the mid/high levels) will be immediately
addable to their spell lists so they get at least some flexibility.

> > No one said I was sticking to chromatic/metallic dragons but even
> > those spells he has access to (like magic mouth) he's going to use
> > intelligently.  Not to mention having his servitors use their
magic to
> > further aid him.
>
> Yes, I'm aware that there are other dragons, such as gem dragons. They
> tend to have a slightly better spell selection. However, you can't
assume
> that any given dragon conveniently has any spell he could possibly
need.
> Even a wizard has to make do with what he learns.

I never do.  However I'm designing a trap based on this dragon having
access to a few key spells.  If he doesn't have those spells (and his
servitors don't) then obviously he won't be one of those dragons that
will try this particular trap.

> (If the servitors are more magically powerful than the dragon, why are
> they servitors?)

Why not?  Lots of pay.  A good geas or dominate.  Charm person (steel
dragons can use charm person at will), charm monster, mass charm, etc.
 Hey, every lich needs a good ally or two and a dragon who'll live as
long as he does while the two trade spell lore is a nasty foe.

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