Re: Spelljamming

> > Fly up to above the entrance (if you're up there, we're already
> assuming
> > you have a way to counter the winds). Stick a piton in the rock, and
> tie
> > on a rope. Cast AMS, and *then* enter the cave.
>
> Except you still have given us a way to counter the winds.

Enlarge and climb+levitate instead of fly, then. That's assuming no spell
research exists in this universe, which is unlikely, especially given your
unspecified anti-scrying spells.

> No idea.  Or why not just tie it to a contingency and be done with it?

I guess. I'm not fond of Contingency as written. Personal choice, I
suppose.

> > However, levitation is just a safety belt. Mainly, the idea is to
> climb
> > the rock face--with levitation as a sort of climbing tool. If you're
> > already on the rock face, winds aren't going to bother you much; I
> > shouldn't think anything less than hurricane-force winds would be
> able to
> > blow you _off_ the cliff, to slam you back onto them for damage.
>
> Of course they could.  Even you don't get a good grip they'll blow you
> across the rocks until you're no longer attached to anything.

Just what kind of a mountain are we talking about, anyway? A marble tower?
All the mountains I've ever seen have plenty of hand holds sufficient to
anchor against a normal wind. What kind of wind speeds are you imagining?
I don't usually get blown around my street by even strong winds. Besides,
objecting on these grounds is a fairly weak defense for the dragon. If
necessary, you *could* piton all the way up--say you were facing winds of
75 mph or so.

(Even then, I don't know. I imagine that I could probably keep a strong
enough handhold to avoid being blown off the roof of a truck going 75
mph.)

> > > > And the simplest one is just
> > > > to cast Enlarge on myself, increasing my mass by twentyfold or
> more.
> > >
> > > Now you catch even more wind and get pushed around even easier.
> > > Remember a fly spell isn't like real wings, it doesn't help you
> fight
> > > the wind anymore than its flying movement rate will allow (whereas a
> > > dragon massive wings and wing muscles combined with its mass let it
> > > ignore the local winds).

Incidentally, I don't think this is true. A dragon, like any flying
creature, would have a certain airspeed velocity. If the wind is blowing,
its absolute velocity changes by that amount.

> > 1.) In that case, you can't be sure that winds would be enough to
> stop a
> > Fly spell. It could be you get the same old MV 18 whether in
> > hurricane-force winds or dead calm.
>
> You do.  Only the move 24 winds more than negate it and cross currents
> will throw you to the side.

I guess that's in the spell description? [shrug] Doesn't really matter.

> > 2.) If you're using a permanent Gust of Wind--or using the spell
> > description as your basis--increased size would indeed help combat the
> > spell. I don't have my books with me, but Huge size creatures are
> reduced
> > to something like half speed, not blown away like man-sized ones are.
>
> Those creatures are standing on the ground, where they have traction.
> In the air a dragon has large wings to enable it to hold position.
> You have neither.

Large wings catch more air. And I do have something to hold on to--the
cliffs. (Hmmm. I thought the speed reduction/blowing away *was* for flying
creatures. Maybe that's Wind Wall.)

> > 3.) If you're climbing the rock, the increased mass would help
> anchor more
> > against the winds. Sure, you catch more wind (as the square of the
> linear
> > size increase, roughly), but your mass increases more than your
> surface
> > area. (Cube of the linear size increase.)
>
> We were talking about flying.  Now you have to hope the already
> treacherous rocks have bigger hand holds and can hold more weight.

They don't need to hold that much more weight, just enough to compensate
for the increased surface area. My Levitate takes care of gravity.

I feel it would balance out. The point is unimportant, though, because
if you're right and it turns out that climbing is more difficult for
larger creatures, you just reverse tactics and cast Reduce instead of
Enlarge. [shrug] I seriously doubt these winds will be a problem.

> > > Why not just dominate the dragon and be done with it?
> >
> > We're trying to penetrate its lair.
>
> Exactly.

So why suggest this in the first place? [Hemlock scratches his head]

> > Admittedly, you *could* just try to
> > ambush and dominate the dragon, but its magic resistance makes this
> risky.
>
> Like trying to dominate and then hold the domination of a beholder
> (while in battle with a dragon no less!) is easy.

1.) Holding Domination isn't particularly hard. The duration is measured
in days, even for an exceptionally intelligent creature like a beholder.

2.) Perhaps I didn't convey clearly what we are doing with the beholder. I
brought up the beholder when we were discussing alternate routes into a
dragon's lair, such as through Passwall and Dig. A beholder's
disintegration eye makes an admirable substitute for both of these. It
would be a lot more difficult to *hire* a beholder to enter combat with a
dragon; we just use him as a digging implement.

> > > > You can cast your Levitate or Fly on the zombie.
> > >
> > > But it's still no good as a scout or at negating the repulsion.
> >
> > The use of the zombie was contingent on discovering whether repulsion
> > affects unliving tissue. Levitate or Fly was an answer to your
> question
> > about how to get the zombie up to the entrance.
>
> I had no question about that (especially since the winds are still
> going to destroy or sweep away the thing).  A zombie can't use fly as
> it has no mind but the caster controls a levitate so that might
> work--to get your zombie blown away by the winds you still haven't
> countered.

There are numerous ways to counter the winds. You've seen some enumerated,
even when I grant you all your own interpretations of the way Fly and Gust
of Wind work. (I.e. Fly is dependent on airspeed, Gust of Wind blows away
anything not anchored to a stable surface.) You could Polymorph into a
larger creature to fly up, since you seem convinced that larger creatures
would be relatively immune to the winds. Rappel from above. Summon an air
elemental (or maybe it's Invisible Stalkers that are immune to winds;
perhaps I misremember). Not all of these would work in this situation, and
some are better than others, but I really feel you are quibbling on this
issue.

> > It's not the mind you trade places with in Magic Jar, it's the life
> force.
> > You can definitely possess undead; to say that you can't possess
> zombies
> > sounds like a house ruling.
>
> Why?  Some undead have life forces but mindless undead like zombies
> don't so what is there to trade places with?  And yes, it is trading
> places with the mind as yours comes with you and theirs goes into the
> gem.  Incidentally you're the one who brought up a zombie having a
> mind (which is in error).

A mind? No, I suggested a Sight Link. It's not contingent upon a zombie
having a mind, unless you design the spell that way. (You'd probably want
a necromantic version, designed especially for undead. Details...)

> > Dragons tend to have a poor spell selection. They have more raw power
> > (higher casting level), but they learn spells randomly, and even an
> > ancient red only gets 5th level spells.
>
> From what I've seen the oldest reds (great wyrms) get only 4th level
> mage spells.

Might be. I don't have my books, but if anyone wants to check, feel free.

> Personally I'd never give a dragon a random spell
> selection (it's too easy to kill off a couple low level mages and
> steal their spell boks

Assuming dragons learn spells from human spell books. Remember, dragon
variants of spells have only verbal components and casting time one. These
are actually different versions of the spells, as evidenced by the fact
that certain Naga (not Spirit, the other evil kind--Dark?) are able to
learn to cast the verbal-only dragon versions of these spells. Thus, it's
not a special property of being a dragon.

> No one said I was sticking to chromatic/metallic dragons but even
> those spells he has access to (like magic mouth) he's going to use
> intelligently.  Not to mention having his servitors use their magic to
> further aid him.

Yes, I'm aware that there are other dragons, such as gem dragons. They
tend to have a slightly better spell selection. However, you can't assume
that any given dragon conveniently has any spell he could possibly need.
Even a wizard has to make do with what he learns.

(If the servitors are more magically powerful than the dragon, why are
they servitors?)

> > Also, is this dragon paranoid enough to cast
> > Invisibility on himself every time he enters and exits his lair?
>
> Why shouldn't he be?  Aren't YOU trying to get in his lair?

For years at a time? Even wizards aren't that paranoid--and that's two
spell slots blown every day (assuming he does some kind of hunting in
between) he goes out. But I'll grant you this. Perhaps he knows I'm on his
tail, or perhaps he really is supra-paranoid.

Besides, as a high-level creature with good intelligence, the wizard will
spot the dragon eventually anyway. If he's got enough patience.
Admittedly, the wizard I'm describing seems to be rather monomaniacal
about killing this dragon, but that's one of the reasons I'll grant your
dragon paranoia. With one maniac, why not another?

> > danger. And if it's an evil dragon, it can't be anything less than a
> red
> > dragon and a Wyrm or thereabouts, in order to cast the Repulsion.
> Steer
> > clear for a while.)
>
> Steer clear of any well played dragon anytime for to quote someones
> email:  "Thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."

The problem with this viewpoint is that AD&D is designed so that even a
strong creature has a chance of dying--even through sheer bad
luck--against a weaker creature. Sure, a 9th level mage charging in
(without even Invisibilty--much good may it do him in the lair--or Armor)
to Dominate the dragon probably will fry. But he could get lucky.
"Well-played" dragons simply increase their odds of survival, much as a
"well-played" attacker decreases it.

(Also keep in mind that you stack the odds in favor of the dragon in your
house campaign by changing the rules. I'm not criticizing that--I also
feel that dragons should probably have better magic than vanilla gives
them--but remember that you're not playing vanilla.)

> Just asking.  I thought you did have to know the destination at least.
>  Still, you now have to aim right to find the dragon's true lair.

Well, if we want to be crafty, we could try Clairaudience or Clairvoyance
to random spots within the mountain. Most of the time we'll just get
solid stone in all directions, but once in a while your spell will fail.
There lies the dragon lair. (Probably. Would you have thought to cast
anti-scrying spells anywhere besides the lair if I hadn't pointed this
out?)

> > That's one reason I wouldn't try this in my own body. I don't think
> he'd
> > actually kill me, but it doesn't hurt to be paranoid.
>
> I'd kill you.

I rather doubt it. For one thing, how are you going to find me? Let's say
I'm reduced to 1/10 of an inch tall, and spying from behind a rock to see
who shows up to check out the Rock-to-Mudded entrance. That's the most
immediate obstacle to overcome. I may not even be within a quarter of a
mile, since a dragon is visible from quite a ways away. Even if you do
spot me, I can just teleport out. Or let's try a Project Image.

> But then I'm not as merciful as an angry red of 1000+
> years (as you were assuming this dragon must be).  Incidentally it's
> not hurting the dragon to be paranoid either.

Admittedly, no. Especially not after I alert him with the little
Rock-to-Mud stunt. Before that, the attacker does have a bit of an
advantage.

> OK mister worm.  When the big spell using fish with flame breath comes
> for you with all the lesser fish that serve him, after he's magically
> scouted you out,

Eh? You make me fight over this issue, but the dragon gets to handwave it
away? How, precisely, is he going to locate me?

> exactly what hook were you going to use to catch him
> and how were you going to reel him in?  Oh, and don't forget he's also
> taken the time to tell all your enemies exactly where you are too.

Oh, how convenient for him. I suppose all my enemies just happen to be
good bowling-buddies of his, just as he conveniently happens to know my
identity and who all my enemies *are*.

If a horde of fire-breathing dragons and dragonlings, the Red Wizards of
Thay and the Chainmen all converge on my location, I'll concede defeat and
depart for sunnier climes. But if that happens, we're already at the
worst-case scenario and the game is over. Why not be specific?

Your Great Wyrm red dragon living on a mountain peak returns from hunting
one day to find his false entrance turned to mud and in shambles. Maybe a
Magic Mouth adds insult to injury, depending upon just how cautious (or
perhaps how crafty) the attacker has decided to be. What's his move?

Not that I actually want to duel out the entire scenario, but you have to
start somewhere. My point is that you can't simply *assume* that the
dragon will know anything at all, except that someone is on his tail.

Good hunting!

Hemlock