Re: IEN Fascists?

gantr@???.edu wrote:
> > Yes,  the Armistice treaty certainly showed a willingness to twist a treaty
> > (though the account in Practical Planetology does show Admiral leafbower
> > oppossing the twisting of the treaty.
>
> True, but the IEN decided on it anyway as I recall.  It is rather rare
> that treaty-twisting like that is a unique occurrance, which is what made
> me conclude that it was a standard policy of theirs.  At least towards the
> end of the Unhuman War.
>
	As I recall, this was a solitary event.  Treaty twisting is a heck of a
lot more common than you think.  Look at our own history; we twisted and
broke so many treaties that you can't easiy count them all.

> > I dispute that the IUW was genocidal in nature.  I've read in many
> > places that the elves drove the goblinoids from the spaceways,  but I
> > haven't heard that they tried to eradicate the goblinoid races in their
> > entirity.
>
> To tell the truth, I can't think of a reference that explicitly states
> that they did either.  I may have just inferred it from the supplements,
> after reading about Borka and Armistace.  Once I find my books, I'll have
> a look and see if I can't find what made me think that.
>
	If they really wanted to commit genocide on the goblins, the elves
would have set them down on Armistace and then slaughtered their priests
(through powerful magic and mages) and let the marauders go to town.
They would have captured a few of them when they orginally destroyed the
marauders and unleashed them on Borka and any other world the goblins
held.  Once the goblin homeworlds were gone, the elves could then hire
some mercs to wipe out the remaining goblins on Toril, Greyhawk, etc.

> > I never read of anything like death camps or wholesale slaughters of
> > goblin communities with the exception of Borka, in Greyspace.
>
> True.  The Borka entry sounded (to me) like planet-busting had become
> policy for the IEN as the war progressed, though.  That incident is one of
> the things that made me start wondering about them.
>
	Bad entry on the part of TSR, IMHO.

> > For several reasons I felt that wasn't such a good idea on TSR's part, put
> > it still remains an single incident.
>
> I would agree that the destruction of Borka was a bad idea on the part of
> TSR, especially since they were obviously trying to cast the IEN as the
> good guys.  I don't think it was a single incident, though.  Once the
> magic (and technology?) needed to destroy a world was developed, I really
> doubt it would be put away again.  The genie was let out of the bottle,
> and it would be too tempting to use it again.  Each time would be, of
> course, the last time. Just to ensure that their objectives would be met
> without the loss of precious elven life.
>
	I really think that TSR was trying to give the elves "the bomb."  Sorta
make them the US navy during WWII.  A really bad parallel, IMHO.

> > Let's keep in mind the nature of their opponents as well,  how many of the
> > elves on Spiral who "surrendered in good faith" recieved humane treatment?
> > None,  they were all ritually tortured and executed one by one.  Goblinoids
> > tend to eat elves (and others),  after all.  Would the goblinoids of
> > Armistice have spared the elves if the situation had been reversed?  They
> > would have eaten them.
>
> I don't think that is a particularly valid argument.  The elves hold
> themselves to a higher moral standard than the goblinoids.  Justifying
> Armistice by saying "They would have done it to us, if not worse, had they
> won" is no justification at all.  By using that defense, the IEN became no
> better than the goblinoids they were fighting.
>
	Actually, the goblinoids DID commit acts of genocide when they had the
chance.  Does the world of Aeroflyn ring a bell?  What about the
marauders?  Do you think they would have stopped with the elves?  No.
If the elves had not intervined and destroyed the majority of the
things, the goblins would have striped the galaxy clean of life.
Instead of FR, GH, and DL, we would be left with DS as the garden spot
of the galaxy.  I'm sorry, but in many cases during the UW, it was a
matter of "us or them; we choose us."  Goblins are violent and cruel;
they have demostrated this countless times.  Only very powerful and evil
(at best neutral) nations have managed to negotiate treaties with them;
treaties that last only until the goblins had the upper hand.

> > >The IEN has never come across as being Chaotic Good, like elves are
> > >suppossed to be.  They seem more like Lawful Neutral, twisting towards
> > >Evil an several occasions.
> >
> > I agree here,  with the caveat that they also twist towards LG on occasion.
> > (Valuss Leafbower's actions in _The Radient Dragon_ towards Teldin Moore.)
>
> Certainly.  I never meant to imply that all of the elves of the IEN were
> evil.  It just seems (to me) as if they were skating awfully near evil
> with their policies.
>
> The way I see the IEN, they started off with good intentions.
> Unfortunatly, as the war dragged on the good intentions were forgotten in
> the face of the desire to end the war as quickly as possible.  The
> goblinoids, never thought much of by the elves anyway, were demonized.
> When that happened it became easy to commit atrocities.  (Rather like the
> way American depictions of Germans and Japanese during WWII became more
> and more extreme and presented them as less and less human as the war went
> on.)  Once depicted as psychopathic monsters whose only purpose in
> existance is to rape and murder elves, the elves would find it easy to
> commit an Armistace or a Borka.  And then another one.  And another.  And
> so on.
>
	This happens with almost any pre-modern war, and with most modern
wars.  What I dislike about your arguement is that it seems you are
holding the IEN to standards that even the modern US military cannot
uphold.  Though elves live a long time, they can and do make mistakes.
Though I hate to use the term (but I can't think of another), elves are
only "human."  They have emotions and feelings, just like everyone
else.  How would you feel if these savage orcs attacked and burned Texas
(or any other state) to the ground, killing and eating everyone the met
(including, for arguement's sake, members of your family?  Your
parents?  Your wife?)?  You'd want to kill them all.  I know I would.  I
would use every weapon at my disposal to wipe their kind from the face
of the Earth.  By the fact that the elves showed any restraint (by not
using captured marauders) should prove their "good intentions."

Night Druid