Re: IEN Fascists?

>> Yes,  the Armistice treaty certainly showed a willingness to twist a treaty
>> (though the account in Practical Planetology does show Admiral leafbower
>> oppossing the twisting of the treaty.
>
>True, but the IEN decided on it anyway as I recall.  It is rather rare
>that treaty-twisting like that is a unique occurrance, which is what made
>me conclude that it was a standard policy of theirs.  At least towards the
>end of the Unhuman War.

I seriously doubt they or the humanoids treated often enough with each
other for the treaty twisting to be standard policy.

>I would agree that the destruction of Borka was a bad idea on the part of
>TSR, especially since they were obviously trying to cast the IEN as the
>good guys.  I don't think it was a single incident, though.  Once the
>magic (and technology?) needed to destroy a world was developed, I really
>doubt it would be put away again.  The genie was let out of the bottle,
>and it would be too tempting to use it again.  Each time would be, of
>course, the last time. Just to ensure that their objectives would be met
>without the loss of precious elven life.

I lean more and more towards the destruction of Borka being a godly event,
not controlable by the elves or anyone else (though runours abound).  The
concept I like best is a major struggle on Borka between avatars of the
elven and orcish deities.  In this cataclysmic struggle a massive seismic
events is set off which starts a chain reaction leading to the planet
literally shaking itself apart. Just a thought...I _hate_ world
destruction.

Static mentioned that Prac, Planetology mentions some other planets being
destroyed...The reference is more vague then Borka,  and in fact the worlds
are described as "tiny",  so I'd say they were likely size "A" or "B".
It's conceivable that a small planet could be destroyed if IEN (multiple
daily earthquake spells,  earth elemental's tasked with destroying the
planet) but I think that's still a far cry from intending to kill all
goblinoids.

>> Let's keep in mind the nature of their opponents as well,  how many of the
>> elves on Spiral who "surrendered in good faith" recieved humane treatment?
>> None,  they were all ritually tortured and executed one by one.  Goblinoids
>> tend to eat elves (and others),  after all.  Would the goblinoids of
>> Armistice have spared the elves if the situation had been reversed?  They
>> would have eaten them.
>
>I don't think that is a particularly valid argument.  The elves hold
>themselves to a higher moral standard than the goblinoids.  Justifying
>Armistice by saying "They would have done it to us, if not worse, had they
>won" is no justification at all.  By using that defense, the IEN became no
>better than the goblinoids they were fighting.

I'm not arguing that they might be neutral,  but this does move them away
from the evil catagory quite abit, IMO.  let's not forget the elves are in
the prototypical "paladin in an orcish village" ethical dilemma.

>The way I see the IEN, they started off with good intentions.
>Unfortunatly, as the war dragged on the good intentions were forgotten in
>the face of the desire to end the war as quickly as possible.  The
>goblinoids, never thought much of by the elves anyway, were demonized.
>When that happened it became easy to commit atrocities.  (Rather like the
>way American depictions of Germans and Japanese during WWII became more
>and more extreme and presented them as less and less human as the war went
>on.)  Once depicted as psychopathic monsters whose only purpose in
>existance is to rape and murder elves, the elves would find it easy to
>commit an Armistace or a Borka.  And then another one.  And another.  And
>so on.

I doubt it took much to demonize the goblinoids in elvish eyes,  but in
general I agree with you here.  But,  I don't see this as an IEN wide
problem but rather something that affects some individuals (like Admiral
Cirathorn).

>> BTW,  Rich,  thanks for bringing this topic up.  I've been meaning to get a
>> discussion started on this for awhile,  so I 'm glad you started it and are
>> disagreeing with me,  help's sharpen my thoughts on the matter!
>
>Thank you.  I love debating, and it's always nice to run into well thought
>out counter-arguments.  They make me reexamine my own views.  Have fun
>with my comments, and take it easy on me if I have my historical points
>a little off (I just started my course work for a BS in History this
>semester).

I might be aquiring something of a reputation here....

"We look on the same stars,  the sky is common,  the same world surrounds
us.  What difference does it make by what pains each seeks the truth?  We
can not attain to so great a secret by one road..."
Symmachus,  "Memorial on the Occasion of the Removal of the Altar of
Victory from the Senate House" (392 AD)

westermeyer.3@???.edu
Paul Westermeyer
Phd Student, History, Ohio State University
Adjunct Faculty, Humanities Department, Columbus State Community College