Re: IEN Fascists?

On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Paul and Kelly Westermeyer wrote:

> I reread my post and I apoligize for the tone. The meaning was what I
> intended but I didn't mean to imply there was anything intrinsicilly wrong
> with your post.

No need to apoligize.  I didn't think there was anything wrong with your
tone.  I guess i should have put a smiley on my post.

> Yes,  the Armistice treaty certainly showed a willingness to twist a treaty
> (though the account in Practical Planetology does show Admiral leafbower
> oppossing the twisting of the treaty.

True, but the IEN decided on it anyway as I recall.  It is rather rare
that treaty-twisting like that is a unique occurrance, which is what made
me conclude that it was a standard policy of theirs.  At least towards the
end of the Unhuman War.

> I dispute that the IUW was genocidal in nature.  I've read in many
> places that the elves drove the goblinoids from the spaceways,  but I
> haven't heard that they tried to eradicate the goblinoid races in their
> entirity.

To tell the truth, I can't think of a reference that explicitly states
that they did either.  I may have just inferred it from the supplements,
after reading about Borka and Armistace.  Once I find my books, I'll have
a look and see if I can't find what made me think that.

> I never read of anything like death camps or wholesale slaughters of
> goblin communities with the exception of Borka, in Greyspace.

True.  The Borka entry sounded (to me) like planet-busting had become
policy for the IEN as the war progressed, though.  That incident is one of
the things that made me start wondering about them.

> For several reasons I felt that wasn't such a good idea on TSR's part, put
> it still remains an single incident.

I would agree that the destruction of Borka was a bad idea on the part of
TSR, especially since they were obviously trying to cast the IEN as the
good guys.  I don't think it was a single incident, though.  Once the
magic (and technology?) needed to destroy a world was developed, I really
doubt it would be put away again.  The genie was let out of the bottle,
and it would be too tempting to use it again.  Each time would be, of
course, the last time. Just to ensure that their objectives would be met
without the loss of precious elven life.

> Let's keep in mind the nature of their opponents as well,  how many of the
> elves on Spiral who "surrendered in good faith" recieved humane treatment?
> None,  they were all ritually tortured and executed one by one.  Goblinoids
> tend to eat elves (and others),  after all.  Would the goblinoids of
> Armistice have spared the elves if the situation had been reversed?  They
> would have eaten them.

I don't think that is a particularly valid argument.  The elves hold
themselves to a higher moral standard than the goblinoids.  Justifying
Armistice by saying "They would have done it to us, if not worse, had they
won" is no justification at all.  By using that defense, the IEN became no
better than the goblinoids they were fighting.

> >The IEN has never come across as being Chaotic Good, like elves are
> >suppossed to be.  They seem more like Lawful Neutral, twisting towards
> >Evil an several occasions.
>
> I agree here,  with the caveat that they also twist towards LG on occasion.
> (Valuss Leafbower's actions in _The Radient Dragon_ towards Teldin Moore.)

Certainly.  I never meant to imply that all of the elves of the IEN were
evil.  It just seems (to me) as if they were skating awfully near evil
with their policies.

The way I see the IEN, they started off with good intentions.
Unfortunatly, as the war dragged on the good intentions were forgotten in
the face of the desire to end the war as quickly as possible.  The
goblinoids, never thought much of by the elves anyway, were demonized.
When that happened it became easy to commit atrocities.  (Rather like the
way American depictions of Germans and Japanese during WWII became more
and more extreme and presented them as less and less human as the war went
on.)  Once depicted as psychopathic monsters whose only purpose in
existance is to rape and murder elves, the elves would find it easy to
commit an Armistace or a Borka.  And then another one.  And another.  And
so on.

> BTW,  Rich,  thanks for bringing this topic up.  I've been meaning to get a
> discussion started on this for awhile,  so I 'm glad you started it and are
> disagreeing with me,  help's sharpen my thoughts on the matter!

Thank you.  I love debating, and it's always nice to run into well thought
out counter-arguments.  They make me reexamine my own views.  Have fun
with my comments, and take it easy on me if I have my historical points
a little off (I just started my course work for a BS in History this
semester).

Rich Gant