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Month Index: September, 1996


From:     "Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tomjr@???.com>
Date:     Mon,  9 Sep 96 21:58:49 PDT
Subject:  Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the
>Sorry. I wasn't there in your class. Did they discuss the dominant and
>recessive traits of the Thri-Kreen as well?

What is it with you and your desire to start arguments and flame wars?
Dominant and recessive traits, regardless of species, follow certain patterns
and rules. The patterns followed by small, isolated, gene pools and the
tendencies for recessives matching up, and an acceleration of change in the
species are well known, regardless of species.

Once again, you seem to be TRYING to start something. I don't know why you
have such a hangup on DS, but take it to the DS listm and argue it there,
this is SJ, and I see no point in continuing something when all you want to
do is propagte an arguement, for reasons unknown.

Like I said a ciouple months ago: Grow up.


>Have you been reading? I was discussing my version of Spelljammer
>history w/regard to the Thri-Kreen.

And telling me that I made the least probable, rather than most probable,
conclusions, given the information listed. Yes I have been reading what
you've written. All of it. Maybe you should re read some of your own
comments.

 My point is that after the disaster
>that put an end to the Thri-Kreen empire, there WAS a worry of the race
>dying out. More than eighty percent of the populace were wiped out, and
>those were the most powerful magic users and psionicists. Those very
>Thri-Kreen that you were pointing to the lack of are conspicuously
>absent for a reason, and the reason was that _they_ _were_ _dead_.
>Cripes, you're arguing about the outcome of my version of a fantasy
>history, one that I did not by any means purport to be the only possible
>explanation. Don't you think that's a bit irrational?

No, actually, you';ve claimed that my conclusions where more improbable, than
probable, and I've pointed out certain basic falacies in your version, and
asked for an explanation of them. Your explanation seems to contradict
itself.

I think what's irrational is your demonstrated tendency to ignore anything
that's written, on the list, or in the rule books, when discussing those very
rules. Also your insistance on ignoring logic when making points. This
started when I pointed out that it was unlikely in the extreme for the race
toi have started on Athas. Your "fantasy history" came next, as some sort of
eveidence to show my logic to be in error.

Why, I still don't know.

 Or who
>knows, perhaps they introduced the difference intentionally through
>magical means in a failed attempt to vary their genetic pool.

But they wouldn't have the nagic until AFTER the difference was introduced,
remember?

Your logic broke down again, and now your propose a boot-strap solution.

 There are
>many answers that make sense, and frankly my players never bothered to
>ask.

So list ONE that makes sense, please. You haven't yet. All you've done, as
you did the last time, is claim I'm all wrong, without giving anything to
support the claim.

And I still can't figure out why you NEVEWR offer ANYTHING to support your
claims or theorie, other than you want it to be that way.

at least THIS time, it isn't a rule you're cliaming doesn't say what it
obviously does, but personal opinion. Your opinion seems to be that I don't
know anything your average High school student is taught about biology.


(Incidentally, I have no idea where it says that the Tohr-Kreen are
>split into three races. Not to say that it doesn't, just that I could
>not find it.)

2 more are in the second compendium. That makes 3.


 Regardless of whatever
>anyone else may think, the following are the facts.
>
>1. The Thri-Kreen's ancestors preceeded 'mankind' into space by many
>millenia.
>2. The ancestors expanded to massive, sphere spanning proportions.
>3. Quite suddenly, and without warning, the Thri-Kreen's ancestors
>suddenly vanished.

As you've claimed this to be fact, regardless of opinion, could I ask your
source for it?

>4. The Tohr-Kreen of Athas are a relative to the Thri-Kreen in some way.
>5. The Tohr-Kreen are more advanced than the Thri-Kreen are; more
>intelligent, less barbaric, and quite secretive.
>6. The Tohr-Kreen's origins, home, reproduction, and society, are almost
>totally unknown.
>7. (To my knowledge) There is no documented reference to a Tohr-Kreen
>race anywhere else in the universe but Athas.
>
>Now, this means that the Tohr-Kreen are one of the following:
>1. The result of spontaneous evolution from the Thri-Kreen of Athas,
>simultaneously evolving into three splinter variants of the race. (I'll
>take your word for that tripartate race idea Thomas.) An evolution that
>has not (see #7 above) manifested anywhere else in the multiverse.
>2. The Tohr-Kreen evolved on Athas because it is the planet of the
>race's birth, and the race is much older there than anywhere else, and
>had been evolving longer in a stable environment.

Well, you've just claimed Athas to be a stable enviroment, and I don't think
you can sell THAT particular idea to ANYONE.


>3. The Tohr-Kreen are the devolving remnants of a even more advanced
>race than they, and the Thri-Kreen of Athas are in turn brought forth
>from them.
>4. The Tohr-Kreen are a race that has evolved parallel to the Thri-Kreen
>race, and are only superficially related to that race.

Also not viable. Interbreeding is hardly a "superficial" relationship.

>5. The Tohr-Kreen were magically created, or modified from the
>Thri-Kreen.
>6. The reverse is true, and the Thri-Kreen are the result of a magical
>seperation/modification/creation. (Which leads to even more trouble than
>we had before.)
>
>I just find it more likely that the Tohr-Kreen are the last vestiges of
>a dying race, (or a race that is being slowly reborn) than they are a
>fluke of evolution that took place only on Athas, and shows no sign of
>happening anywhere else in the multiverse. By your own laws of
>probability, don't you think that it is unlikely that the sudden leap in
>evolution hasn't shown itself even marginally in the other Thri-Kreen
>clutches of the Multiverse?

No, I don't. Thri-keen thin the herd, and kill their own children. Tohr-keen
don't.

Who knows what criteria the Thri-keen use?

Also, ALL the usual races that are on Athas are improved over their kin
elsewhere. Evolution in action. Survival of the fittest in an extrememly
harsh enviroment. I've already made this point once, remember?

By the laws of mathmatical probablility (the universew's, not mine, BTW) It's
more likely to have an accelerated evolution on Athas, than a more placid
world. As reflected in the rules of character generation.

Again, this point has already been made.

>Regardless, as we have demonstrated in the past, every person has his
>own opinion about the D&D Universe, and I have merely presented a
>possible explanation for the small crumbs that TSR has left for us.

Not "merely", but after telling me I I mis applied Occam's razor. Face it,
what you "merely" did was start telling someone they didn't know what they
were talking about, then proceeded to give a different view, and support it
with misapplied facts. See your point about evolution above, the stability of
Athas' enviroment, above, etc.

 If
>you don't agree that's fine, but don't say that is not possible. In a
>world of wishes and divine intervention, the discussion of probability
>theory and standard deviation is pointless.

Hardly. And to keep the record straight, I said "less likely", not
impossible. You siad more likely, then  call up wishes, and DI to make the
point, claiming standard probablilities to be pointless.


Power Gamer. are you, that Wishes are your answer over natural tendencies?
You'd be suprised at the number of folks that like a little logic intheir
games. Some of them are even on this list. I doubt I'm the only one of us
that find's it insulting when you call our style of play "pointless".


I have taken the existing
>facts and supplied a storyline that makes sense to my universe, one that
>everyone on the list is free to use in whole or in part if they care to.
>If my ideas do not fit with your universe then discard them. It is as
>simple as that. I joined this list for an exchange of ideas, not to be
>attacked every time I supply my input.

Then why did you attack my input? Again.

You proposed all this after telling me that my choice of the most likely
reasoning, was actually the least likely, and you claimed that yours was, in
fact, more likely. And have yet to say whyt, but to make the claim that my
defense of your attack was actually an attack on you.

Do me a favor, instead of attaccking what I say, then whining that I've
attacked you, just quit responding to my posts.

And take the damned DS stuff to the appropriate list.



>Deviant of the Blatant Disregard

Especially of facts, apparently.

Thank You For Your Time,

Thomas O Magann Jr
http://www.sfo.com/~tomjr/

<tomjr@???.com> or my back-up: <TMagann@???.com>




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