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Month Index: September, 1996

From:     Deviant <deviant@????????.??.ca>
Date:     Mon, 09 Sep 1996 23:43:57 -0500
Subject:  Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the Species
> >What remains of the magical ability of the Juna? As of the end of the
> >Cloakmaster Cycle, nothing. And again, their empire was far more vast
> >than that of the Thri-Kreen. It is not impossible. But regardless, I
> >wish to examine the other probablility.
> A magic wand, an old base, possibly the Spelljammer itself.....

A few scattered relics of a sphere spanning empire that dwarfed the
Thri-Kreen's own. Is there any wonder that the few Thri-Kreen artifacts
that remain are only enough to start rumors among the modern sages.

> >> I thought so. Don't you?
> >
> >No.
> Odd. The amount of probabilty mathmatics, and genetics I learned in high
> school 20 years ago makes the point clear.

Sorry. I wasn't there in your class. Did they discuss the dominant and
recessive traits of the Thri-Kreen as well?

> >> Add that to the Thrikeen habit of killing their young, and non viable kids
> in
> >> the colony won't be around to breed, but the ones with unique abilities
> that
> >> aid survival would.
> >>
> >> Result: Thrikeen different from all their brethren in the rest of the
> >> universe, where the TK can afford to kill ANY children that are different,
> >> without worrying about the race dying out.
> >
> >Not to sound critical, but what does that have to do with anything.
> Have you been reading? Read the above: The TK in the wide universe can
> killoff any variant from the norm, and not worry about the race dying out,
> given the immense gene pool, resulting in stagnation of the gene pool.The few
> isolated on Athas would have to let viable children live no matter how
> different or risk extinction. This would tend to increase the chance of a
> deviation from the established norm, as those deviants are allowed to lve.
> Add in the matching of recessives such as happen in limited gene pools, and
> the population suddenly goes thru some very rapid changes.

Have you been reading? I was discussing my version of Spelljammer
history w/regard to the Thri-Kreen. My point is that after the disaster
that put an end to the Thri-Kreen empire, there WAS a worry of the race
dying out. More than eighty percent of the populace were wiped out, and
those were the most powerful magic users and psionicists. Those very
Thri-Kreen that you were pointing to the lack of are conspicuously
absent for a reason, and the reason was that _they_ _were_ _dead_.
Cripes, you're arguing about the outcome of my version of a fantasy
history, one that I did not by any means purport to be the only possible
explanation. Don't you think that's a bit irrational?

> >They haven't hidden every indication of their existence from all those
> >spacefarers for how long. All the indications of their existence were
> >attributed to the _Thri-Kreen_ who are the devolved result of the death
> >of the Tohr-Kreen empire. And they are right. The Thri-Kreen are the
> >backwards descendants of that mighty race, and still bear it's racial
> >memory and shared history.
> Now you are saying that the population on athas devolced in the same amnner
> as the popukation at large, even though isolated. Just not as far. Which
> still doesn't address the *3* races of Tohr keen, instead of one parent
> race.

That is correct, in my version it did. And it does address the three
variant races of the Tohr-Kreen. The Tohr-Kreen have been on Athas for
lord knows how many years. In the closed system that is the Athasian
environment, it is unlikely that the Tohr-Kreen are in the same state,
genetically, as they were when they arrived. The three races are
splinters from the Parent race, borne of the years of reproduction which
eventually led to the further breakdown into the Thri-Kreen race. Or who
knows, perhaps they introduced the difference intentionally through
magical means in a failed attempt to vary their genetic pool. There are
many answers that make sense, and frankly my players never bothered to
ask. (Incidentally, I have no idea where it says that the Tohr-Kreen are
split into three races. Not to say that it doesn't, just that I could
not find it.)

> >> Does that really seem likely?
> >
> >Most certainly. Your limited gene pool idea strikes to the very heart of
> >this problem. Who knows how many Tohr-Kreen there are? There may only be
> >a handful left in the multiverse. The three subraces could very easily
> >be the result of the Tohr-Kreen's attempt to repopulate their race in a
> >very restrictive environment. The gradual degradation of the genetic
> >purity of the race begins to result in barbaric, less intelligent
> >offspring, already more adapted to the savage environment than they.
> >They breed faster, and in greater numbers, necessities for survival in
> >the harsh terrain. Thus the Tohr-Kreen resort to other, more mysterious
> >methods to reproduce, which would explain why you do not see the
> >Tohr-Kreen "hatchlings" (for lack of a better term). Or perhaps (as you
> >have demonstrated that you can leave the sphere), they do not make a
> >permanent residence on Athas. Either an extra-dimensional home, or
> >extra-planetary home. There are many other possibilities which fit the
> >facts, and any DM could fit them into their campaign if they wished.
> OK, a couple problems: you've explained why they are on athas, and theat the
> TK on athas are a result of devolution, but haven't explained any "parrellal
> devolution" to explain why every TK in the *UNIVERSE* seems to be following
> the same path.
For the same reason that the Thri-Kreen race was once an immense empire,
and are now merely a few scattered tribes of barbarians on a handful of
worlds. I left that intentionally vague, because I am sure that everyone
has a different explanation in their universe, but for the sake of
simplicity, I shall describe the plotline that I used. As I mentioned,
in mine, the cataclysm was a tie in with the Blood Wars. The then
Tohr-Kreen in their massive ships of crystal embarked en masse to a
sphere where the wars were spilling over into our plane. Focusing all
their magical energies, they beat back the demons and sealed the
gateway. Unfortunately as a result many of the Tohr-Kreen were killed
either in the battle, or from the strain of the event. The effort of
opposing the forces of the Outer Planes drained many of the surviving
Tohr-Kreen of their magical abilities so severely, that their offspring
were born magically dead. This was the catastrophe that caused the
Tohr-Kreen empire to collapse. Without their magic, their ships could
not achieve Spelljamming speed, and thus their enemies took advantage of
their weakened state and destroyed them, one world at a time. Those
Tohr-Kreen planets that survived were thrust back into the figurative
"Stone Age", and those that managed to remain in space devised the
peculiar method of travel that they still emply to this day, which is a
throwback to their previous crystal technology. Now, as I have stressed
before, this is my personal take on the events. Regardless of whatever
anyone else may think, the following are the facts.

1. The Thri-Kreen's ancestors preceeded 'mankind' into space by many
2. The ancestors expanded to massive, sphere spanning proportions.
3. Quite suddenly, and without warning, the Thri-Kreen's ancestors
suddenly vanished.
4. The Tohr-Kreen of Athas are a relative to the Thri-Kreen in some way.
5. The Tohr-Kreen are more advanced than the Thri-Kreen are; more
intelligent, less barbaric, and quite secretive.
6. The Tohr-Kreen's origins, home, reproduction, and society, are almost
totally unknown.
7. (To my knowledge) There is no documented reference to a Tohr-Kreen
race anywhere else in the universe but Athas.

Now, this means that the Tohr-Kreen are one of the following:
1. The result of spontaneous evolution from the Thri-Kreen of Athas,
simultaneously evolving into three splinter variants of the race. (I'll
take your word for that tripartate race idea Thomas.) An evolution that
has not (see #7 above) manifested anywhere else in the multiverse.
2. The Tohr-Kreen evolved on Athas because it is the planet of the
race's birth, and the race is much older there than anywhere else, and
had been evolving longer in a stable environment.
3. The Tohr-Kreen are the devolving remnants of a even more advanced
race than they, and the Thri-Kreen of Athas are in turn brought forth
from them.
4. The Tohr-Kreen are a race that has evolved parallel to the Thri-Kreen
race, and are only superficially related to that race.
5. The Tohr-Kreen were magically created, or modified from the
6. The reverse is true, and the Thri-Kreen are the result of a magical
seperation/modification/creation. (Which leads to even more trouble than
we had before.)

I just find it more likely that the Tohr-Kreen are the last vestiges of
a dying race, (or a race that is being slowly reborn) than they are a
fluke of evolution that took place only on Athas, and shows no sign of
happening anywhere else in the multiverse. By your own laws of
probability, don't you think that it is unlikely that the sudden leap in
evolution hasn't shown itself even marginally in the other Thri-Kreen
clutches of the Multiverse?

Regardless, as we have demonstrated in the past, every person has his
own opinion about the D&D Universe, and I have merely presented a
possible explanation for the small crumbs that TSR has left for us. If
you don't agree that's fine, but don't say that is not possible. In a
world of wishes and divine intervention, the discussion of probability
theory and standard deviation is pointless. I have taken the existing
facts and supplied a storyline that makes sense to my universe, one that
everyone on the list is free to use in whole or in part if they care to.
If my ideas do not fit with your universe then discard them. It is as
simple as that. I joined this list for an exchange of ideas, not to be
attacked every time I supply my input.

For the rest of you, if anyone is interested in the actual specifics of
my Tohr-Kreen/Thri-Kreen history, feel free to ask. Otherwise I am weary
of this vein of discussion and wish to move on to something else.

Deviant of the Blatant Disregard   "Friends come and friends go,
                                     But enemies accumulate."
    deviant@????????.??.ca            -Ragnarok's Eighth law of Survival

Previous Message: Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the Species
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Month Index: September, 1996

SubjectFromDate (UTC)
Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the Species    Deviant    10 Sep 1996 02:41:07
Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the Species    Thomas O. Magann Jr.    10 Sep 1996 02:52:51
Re: Tohr-Kreen and the Origin of the Species    Deviant    10 Sep 1996 04:43:57

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