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From:     "Thomas O. Magann Jr." <tomjr@???.com>
Date:     Sun, 30 Jun 96 01:00:52 PDT
Subject:  Re: RE:
>> >Then why is there an argument if the case is airtight. The answer is, it
is
>> not. You
>> >have yet to have shown that the transformation is impossible given the
>> restrictions.
>> >Thus, the argument remains.
>>
>> Because you want to argue? You could argue that the sun is a big light
bulb,
>> But that wouldn't make it so.
>
>I don't want to argue, I am making an argument. As in a logical discourse.
And I don't
>recall making any statement about light bulbs.

No, but above you implied that very fact that was an arguement was proof that
there was room for doubt, but all you've expressed is doubts, with nothing to
support them.

It certainly seems a s though you're arguing out of boredom.

>> I *have* shown the change to take place on the etherial, and the etherial
to
>> be impossible to access from certain places.
>
>And how have you shown the change to take place on the etherial. Could you
restate
>exactly what proof that you have given towards this premise?

My point exactly. You're ignoring the  fact that's it's been shown to hwppwn
on the etherial in 3 places, and 2 books. Do you really want the page numbers
again?


>Well, personal attacks aside, I am simply showing that there is no grounds
for the
>assumption that simply because access to the etherial plane is denied in the
Phlogiston,
>that it follows that the elemental transformation of a cleric is hindered in
any way.

You have? When?

>There are vortices on the Prime that make a direct connection between itself
and the
>Inner planes. There are other methods, you see.

Um, yes, but that's on the prime, where contact with the etherial is
possible. And none of these vortices seem to be required or even mentioned as
part of the transformation.

What do they have to do with the Flow?


>
>When a person is covered in oil of etherialness, is he suddenly no longer on
the Prime
>Material?

That's right, he's shifted to the border etherial. That's why the oil doesn't
work in the Outer planes or the Flow.

Same with the Armor, or any spell or psionic effect of the same nature.

 In a physical sense he has no form, but his presence and his transformation
>are still on the Prime Material. Is there any rule that states otherwise?

Yes, there is. In fact, much of the basic set of PS covers this issue, and
others, including which spells and devices require planar pathways, and the
like. And with pathways.

As I believe I've said once or twice already.

The Concordance goes into the details of of the flow, and it's lack of
connection to the various inner and outer planes, and how this affects spells
and items.

As you can see by looking at Appendix 1 of the Concordance, any spell or
effect that require access to other planes don't work. Several requiring
access tot he etherial don't work BECAUSE SUCH ACCESS DOESN'T EXIST.


>What I have shown is that the body is not a different one, and given a
possible
>explanation for the variability of the cleric's elemental form.

You did? When? You've shown that once the change becomes permenant, that
final body is kept, but that's all you've shown.

And it didn't really need to be shown in the first place, as it was common
sense.


>No, I am not making fun of any errors, I was simply unfamiliar with the
term. I was not
>sure if it was a spelling mistake or an actual term. Please try to see the
point that I
>am attempting to make, and not focus on the method that I am going about
bringing it up.
>My interests are purely in an exploration of the rules, and are not grounded
in any sort
>of hostility.

OK< what the hell is the point you are trying to make? The books are
mistaken?

The authors used the wrong rules?

Access to the etherial plane isn't necessary to become etherial?

I really don't know, but you haven't made any of them.


>> You, amognst others, remember?
>
>No, I simply said that Athas was off the normal space routes. And that as
far as TSR was
>concerned, i.e. in terms of creating a Athasspace supplement, the sphere was
>inaccessible. That is not to say that spelljamming does not exist in their
sphere, it is
>to say that the characters spelljamming from a DS setting will not interact
with SJ
>characters setting out from Realmspace or the like.

I believe a day or so ago, you first mentioned the Black and Grey, whatever
they were. Today's mention, by someone else, was the second mention, and
you're the only other one involved.



>> Nope, just the etherial, and it is clearly described in all three places
that
>> describe the change, and is part of the change.
>
>But the tern requirement has never been used in any of the three places,
merely that the
>change occurs in that manner. A part of the change yes, but not a requisite
part. Ice
>changes to liquid before turning to a vapor, but under certain circumstances
when
>prevented from attaining a liquid form, the solid form of water can
sublimate the liquid
>state entirely and change to a gas. I am merely suggesting that the part of
the
>transformation is not a requirement.

Based on what? That's my point, you seem to have no basis for such an
assumption, and to want to ignore every thing that the books say about
anything that disagrees with this "suggestion", yet you offer no supporting
facts for any of your claims, and consistantly ignore the points and
references I've brought up to he point of asking for them repeatedly,
although they've already been given.

Including in this very post.


>> >And as yet, there has not been one solid piece of evidence that states
that
>> your
>> >assumption is correct.
>>
>> There hasn't been? Or you've ignored it?
>
>I have not ignored anything you have said. On the contrary, I have been
paying close
>attention to your argument.

Then why ask for pages numbers and facts you've already been given a few
tomes previous?

Hardly seems to be any attention paid at all, sorry.

It still has yet to prove the necessity of the etherial
>state to the transformation.

As it's *PART* of the transformation, proving it's necessity is on a par with
proving that the body becoming flame is necessary to tranforming the body to
flame.

That *is*, after all, the *second* stage of the transformation, when a fire
elemental cleric is concerned.

Frankly, the very fact that it *is* part of the transformation (and imposed
should the change be imposed, instead of taken by choice on a given day)
proves it necessary.

Also. you're therory about one element overriding the others being
responsible for the change doesn't seem to agree with the facts. DK staes
that the cleric is either "fully elemental, or fully human". Which means that
there is none of the other three elements left to fight but the over riding
elemental, and bring back the human body.

Seems like an elemental body is being used instead, frankly, and not a
conversion. Especially in water poor Athas, where there is little or no water
in most places to reconsitute a human body (which is about 98% water), in the
case of non water elemental clerics.

And a fire elemental body would eliminate any leftover traces of water.

Which means that, even if the body changes, instead of being traded for
another, the necessary elements to reconsitute the human body need to come
from somewhere. On, on Athas, where atwer is involved, that pretty well means
a conecction to the elemental planes.

I doubt highly that there would be a couple of different procedures to use
depending on whether the one-in-a-million shot of having no access to the
etherial came about.

Especially as this would mean that the mechanism is automatic from withoout,
which means the elemental planes, which means they couldn't impose it in any
event, if the connection thru the etherial wasn't there.

That, and the fact the the reason the powers are given to clerics is to
foster the repair of Athas's ecosystem (EAW&F), they would want the clerics
leaving anyhow, it would mean they weren't doing the agreed upon work to pay
for the granted powers.

While in all of the three places that you point out, the
>term etherial is used, in no place have I found the term
'necessary','manditory' or
>'required'. I have no dispute with the fact that it is a part of the
transformation
>under normal circumstances, but given the possibility of the prevention of
the etherial
>state, there is nothing to say that the transformation will not take place.
>

See above.

What's more important is that there is nothing saying how it *could* take
place if the etherial was cut off from the character.

Old rule from med school, a Doctor friend of mine told me: When you hear
hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras. Zebras are pretty rare, and almost never
come up. You seem to argue that they *might*, some day, but you haven't even
addressed the fact that is probably horses running by.


Thank You For Your Time,

Thomas O Magann Jr
http://www.sfo.com/~tomjr/

<tomjr@???.com> or my back-up: <TMagann@???.com>




Previous Message: Re: Re:
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Month Index: June, 1996

SubjectFromDate (UTC)
Re: RE:    Thomas O. Magann Jr.    30 Jun 1996 05:31:48
Re: RE:    Thomas O. Magann Jr.    30 Jun 1996 06:13:08
Re: RE:    Thomas O. Magann Jr.    30 Jun 1996 08:00:52
Re: RE:    Thomas O. Magann Jr.    30 Jun 1996 09:10:08

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